Balk/INF/fair-foul

[FleasOf1000Camels]

This is confusing on several levels.  Let me know what you think.

 

The field we're playing on is a flex-field, all dirt infield that can have bases at 60-70 or 80 feet.  The infield is VERY hard packed clay, almost like concrete.  Between pitcher's plate and 2nd base there is a submerged water hose connection.  It's inside a 6" PVC pipe, covered with a plastic cap, more or less level with the ground.  That cap is 76' from home plate.

 

Scenario A: (as it REALLY happened)

12u game on 70' bases, playing under OBR. I am BU.

Bases loaded, 1 out.  Pitcher working from the stretch, but blows right through the set.

Both umpires call BALK, but pitch is already on the way.

Batter hits pop fly right in the middle of the infield.

Both umps point up and call INFIELD FLY.

(I'm thinking to myself "since the batter's out should we kill the play right now and enforce the balk?")

Both F4 and F6 are calling for the ball, and both are in position to make the catch.

However, just before the ball lands, they both step back and the ball lands untouched.

The ball lands with a loud CRACK right on the edge of that plastic cap, then ricochets toward 3B line.

The ball crosses foul line about 8' in front of 3B, then rolls under the gate and in the dugout.

 

When sorting this out, consider these alternate scenarios:

B.  Forget about the balk, but take the rest of the play just as it happened.

C.  Forget about the IFR...say there were 2 out when the play began.

D.  Say instead of rolling in the dugout the ball hit R3 in foul territory.

 

Have fun.

 

 

 

[noumpere]

My guess (granted dangerous to put myself in someone else's head) is based on statements in afaber12's post.  FED just decided to take angle out of the equation and only examine the distance a ball traveled.  The line is 90ft away and they are saying any ball that travels 90 ft and landed in fair territory has gone beyond first or third and is fair.

 

 

While it's true that any ball that goes farther than 90' in fair territory will be fair in FED, it's NOT a requirement that the ball travel 90'.  A ball could travel 64' and be ruled fair.

 

No one (I don't think) uses a "90' arc" to define fair.  OBR and NCAA use the infield square, so a ball needs to travel between 90' and 127' (about) depending on the angle to be fair.

[Rich Ives]

My guess (granted dangerous to put myself in someone else's head) is based on statements in afaber12's post.  FED just decided to take angle out of the equation and only examine the distance a ball traveled.  The line is 90ft away and they are saying any ball that travels 90 ft and landed in fair territory has gone beyond first or third and is fair.

 

My problem is that I learned FED first and honestly had no idea this rule was different.  Another example of why this board rules. 

 

But if you connect the 1B-3B dots the midpoint (beyond the mound) is only about 64' so the 90' of travel theory doesn't hold water.

[FleasOf1000Camels]

@afaber12;

You say "the ball didn't first land in fair territory beyond first or third base".  And as much as I've tried to convince myself that that's true, and the ball is foul, I'm still hung up on it.  Follow me through this:

(FYI: In these examples I converted it from 70' bases to 90')

 

Example A:  Line drive down 3rd base line.  First place it hits ground is 2' past 3rd and right on the line.

Certainly, we ALL agree that ball is fair...no matter where it goes after landing.

 

Example B: Another ball also first makes ground contact 92' from home, but 6' inside line, then kicks/spins to foul ground.  We all agree this is a fair ball as well.

 

Example C: Now we come to my goofy-assed pop-up that lands 92' from home plate, but right in the middle of the field...where it hits a drain cap/sprinkler head/rock/whatever.

 

It landed 92' from home plate, clearly a distance from home that is further away than either first or third.  Why wouldn't this ball be fair as soon as it lands? Didn't it "first land in fair territory BEYOND first or third?"  Is there some magic point between the base line and the middle of the field where we no longer consider it to have passed 3rd base?...and it there IS such a line, please tell me where it is.

 

As I said in an earlier post, on the actual play it didn't make any difference if the ball was fair or foul.  We enforced the balk and moved along.  But it got me to thinking all the various 'what-if' scenarios, and my partner and I had a lengthy beer-soaked discussion over it after the game.  We ended up going back to the field with a flashlight and tape rule...and we're still yapping about it to each other.

 

Believe me...I want this ball to be foul just as much as everybody else seems to, but I'm still not convinced that the letter of the rule doesn't actually support it being fair.

 

 

 

 

 

[Jimurray]

@afaber12;

You say "the ball didn't first land in fair territory beyond first or third base".  And as much as I've tried to convince myself that that's true, and the ball is foul, I'm still hung up on it.  Follow me through this:

(FYI: In these examples I converted it from 70' bases to 90')

 

Example A:  Line drive down 3rd base line.  First place it hits ground is 2' past 3rd and right on the line.

Certainly, we ALL agree that ball is fair...no matter where it goes after landing.

 

Example B: Another ball also first makes ground contact 92' from home, but 6' inside line, then kicks/spins to foul ground.  We all agree this is a fair ball as well.

 

Example C: Now we come to my goofy-assed pop-up that lands 92' from home plate, but right in the middle of the field...where it hits a drain cap/sprinkler head/rock/whatever.

 

It landed 92' from home plate, clearly a distance from home that is further away than either first or third.  Why wouldn't this ball be fair as soon as it lands? Didn't it "first land in fair territory BEYOND first or third?"  Is there some magic point between the base line and the middle of the field where we no longer consider it to have passed 3rd base?...and it there IS such a line, please tell me where it is.

 

As I said in an earlier post, on the actual play it didn't make any difference if the ball was fair or foul.  We enforced the balk and moved along.  But it got me to thinking all the various 'what-if' scenarios, and my partner and I had a lengthy beer-soaked discussion over it after the game.  We ended up going back to the field with a flashlight and tape rule...and we're still yapping about it to each other.

 

Believe me...I want this ball to be foul just as much as everybody else seems to, but I'm still not convinced that the letter of the rule doesn't actually support it being fair.

Sounds like we need to have another foul line like they do in T-ball. Instead of a 10' or whatever arc we need to draw a 90' arc from 1B to 3B. And then in FED we need to draw a straight line from 1B to 3B.

[Replacematt]

@afaber12;

You say "the ball didn't first land in fair territory beyond first or third base".  And as much as I've tried to convince myself that that's true, and the ball is foul, I'm still hung up on it.  Follow me through this:

(FYI: In these examples I converted it from 70' bases to 90')

 

Example A:  Line drive down 3rd base line.  First place it hits ground is 2' past 3rd and right on the line.

Certainly, we ALL agree that ball is fair...no matter where it goes after landing.

 

Example B: Another ball also first makes ground contact 92' from home, but 6' inside line, then kicks/spins to foul ground.  We all agree this is a fair ball as well.

 

Example C: Now we come to my goofy-assed pop-up that lands 92' from home plate, but right in the middle of the field...where it hits a drain cap/sprinkler head/rock/whatever.

 

It landed 92' from home plate, clearly a distance from home that is further away than either first or third.  Why wouldn't this ball be fair as soon as it lands? Didn't it "first land in fair territory BEYOND first or third?"  Is there some magic point between the base line and the middle of the field where we no longer consider it to have passed 3rd base?...and it there IS such a line, please tell me where it is.

 

As I said in an earlier post, on the actual play it didn't make any difference if the ball was fair or foul.  We enforced the balk and moved along.  But it got me to thinking all the various 'what-if' scenarios, and my partner and I had a lengthy beer-soaked discussion over it after the game.  We ended up going back to the field with a flashlight and tape rule...and we're still yapping about it to each other.

 

Believe me...I want this ball to be foul just as much as everybody else seems to, but I'm still not convinced that the letter of the rule doesn't actually support it being fair.

 

As dicta: If a football team has the ball on their opponents 20-yard line on the right hash, if they run the ball 30 yards to the left, should it be a touchdown? No, because they didn't go beyond the line. Going beyond 1B or 3B means that the ball must pass a line perpendicular to the line between the origin and the end point.

[ALStripes17]

@afaber12;

You say "the ball didn't first land in fair territory beyond first or third base". And as much as I've tried to convince myself that that's true, and the ball is foul, I'm still hung up on it. Follow me through this:

(FYI: In these examples I converted it from 70' bases to 90')

Example A: Line drive down 3rd base line. First place it hits ground is 2' past 3rd and right on the line.

Certainly, we ALL agree that ball is fair...no matter where it goes after landing.

Example B: Another ball also first makes ground contact 92' from home, but 6' inside line, then kicks/spins to foul ground. We all agree this is a fair ball as well.

Example C: Now we come to my goofy-assed pop-up that lands 92' from home plate, but right in the middle of the field...where it hits a drain cap/sprinkler head/rock/whatever.

It landed 92' from home plate, clearly a distance from home that is further away than either first or third. Why wouldn't this ball be fair as soon as it lands? Didn't it "first land in fair territory BEYOND first or third?" Is there some magic point between the base line and the middle of the field where we no longer consider it to have passed 3rd base?...and it there IS such a line, please tell me where it is.

As I said in an earlier post, on the actual play it didn't make any difference if the ball was fair or foul. We enforced the balk and moved along. But it got me to thinking all the various 'what-if' scenarios, and my partner and I had a lengthy beer-soaked discussion over it after the game. We ended up going back to the field with a flashlight and tape rule...and we're still yapping about it to each other.

Believe me...I want this ball to be foul just as much as everybody else seems to, but I'm still not convinced that the letter of the rule doesn't actually support it being fair.

As dicta: If a football team has the ball on their opponents 20-yard line on the right hash, if they run the ball 30 yards to the left, should it be a touchdown? No, because they didn't go beyond the line. Going beyond 1B or 3B means that the ball must pass a line perpendicular to the line between the origin and the end point.

Was not aware we had lines-to-gain in baseball :)

[goody14]

Alright, alright, alright...with some help from Pythagoras, a dose of logic and some common sense, I see where I was being dense on this one.

 

The FED line makes no sense.

[Replacematt]

 

 

@afaber12;

You say "the ball didn't first land in fair territory beyond first or third base". And as much as I've tried to convince myself that that's true, and the ball is foul, I'm still hung up on it. Follow me through this:

(FYI: In these examples I converted it from 70' bases to 90')

Example A: Line drive down 3rd base line. First place it hits ground is 2' past 3rd and right on the line.

Certainly, we ALL agree that ball is fair...no matter where it goes after landing.

Example B: Another ball also first makes ground contact 92' from home, but 6' inside line, then kicks/spins to foul ground. We all agree this is a fair ball as well.

Example C: Now we come to my goofy-assed pop-up that lands 92' from home plate, but right in the middle of the field...where it hits a drain cap/sprinkler head/rock/whatever.

It landed 92' from home plate, clearly a distance from home that is further away than either first or third. Why wouldn't this ball be fair as soon as it lands? Didn't it "first land in fair territory BEYOND first or third?" Is there some magic point between the base line and the middle of the field where we no longer consider it to have passed 3rd base?...and it there IS such a line, please tell me where it is.

As I said in an earlier post, on the actual play it didn't make any difference if the ball was fair or foul. We enforced the balk and moved along. But it got me to thinking all the various 'what-if' scenarios, and my partner and I had a lengthy beer-soaked discussion over it after the game. We ended up going back to the field with a flashlight and tape rule...and we're still yapping about it to each other.

Believe me...I want this ball to be foul just as much as everybody else seems to, but I'm still not convinced that the letter of the rule doesn't actually support it being fair.

As dicta: If a football team has the ball on their opponents 20-yard line on the right hash, if they run the ball 30 yards to the left, should it be a touchdown? No, because they didn't go beyond the line. Going beyond 1B or 3B means that the ball must pass a line perpendicular to the line between the origin and the end point.

 

Was not aware we had lines-to-gain in baseball

 

 

And I fully acknowledged that.

[afaber12]

@afaber12;

You say "the ball didn't first land in fair territory beyond first or third base".  And as much as I've tried to convince myself that that's true, and the ball is foul, I'm still hung up on it.  Follow me through this:

(FYI: In these examples I converted it from 70' bases to 90')

 

Example A:  Line drive down 3rd base line.  First place it hits ground is 2' past 3rd and right on the line.

Certainly, we ALL agree that ball is fair...no matter where it goes after landing.

 

Example B: Another ball also first makes ground contact 92' from home, but 6' inside line, then kicks/spins to foul ground.  We all agree this is a fair ball as well.

 

Example C: Now we come to my goofy-assed pop-up that lands 92' from home plate, but right in the middle of the field...where it hits a drain cap/sprinkler head/rock/whatever.

 

It landed 92' from home plate, clearly a distance from home that is further away than either first or third.  Why wouldn't this ball be fair as soon as it lands? Didn't it "first land in fair territory BEYOND first or third?"  Is there some magic point between the base line and the middle of the field where we no longer consider it to have passed 3rd base?...and it there IS such a line, please tell me where it is.

 

As I said in an earlier post, on the actual play it didn't make any difference if the ball was fair or foul.  We enforced the balk and moved along.  But it got me to thinking all the various 'what-if' scenarios, and my partner and I had a lengthy beer-soaked discussion over it after the game.  We ended up going back to the field with a flashlight and tape rule...and we're still yapping about it to each other.

 

Believe me...I want this ball to be foul just as much as everybody else seems to, but I'm still not convinced that the letter of the rule doesn't actually support it being fair.

 

The phrase we're dealing with from the rule book is in the definition of a fair ball: "... that first falls on fair territory on or beyond first base or third base, ...". Maybe what I'm thinking and why I'm thinking it will be a little clearer if we reword that phrase in a longer form without changing its meaning: "... that first falls on fair territory on or beyond first base of the first falls on fair territory on or beyond third base, ...". Then also look at the definition of 'beyond'; if you google it the various definitions that come up all talk about "the further side of". 

 

So lets take one of either first or third base individually, and consider the situation if the ball lands 92ft away from the point of the plate, in the direction of second base. Whatever result we get for first base will be the same for third base, because as far as this situation is concerned one is the mirror image of the other. So imagine standing on home plate, looking towards third base. The ball lands 92ft away from you and off to your right. As measured along the base line though, its only about 65ft away. That's not on the further side of the base; the point it landed on is the same side of the third base that you're on. Do the same thing along the first base line and you get the same result

 

For the ball to be beyond - on the further side of - either first base or third base (or both) it has to be outside of the infield diamond. Not just 90ft or more away from the plate, but outside of the 90ft square, otherwise its on the inside of both bases.

[DVA7130]

You have managed to take all interpretation and logic out of 2.00....

Ball hits natural object to the ground within the infield (with in the baselines), then kicks foul without touching anything it is foul.

Quit with the numbers game..

[Replacematt]

You have managed to take all interpretation and logic out of 2.00....

Ball hits natural object to the ground within the infield (with in the baselines), then kicks foul without touching anything it is foul.

Quit with the numbers game..

That'd be great, except that one of the three major rulesets doesn't follow that logic, hence the discussion.

[Rich Ives]

You have managed to take all interpretation and logic out of 2.00....

Ball hits natural object to the ground within the infield (with in the baselines), then kicks foul without touching anything it is foul.

Quit with the numbers game..

 

It can be an unnatural object too.

[afaber12]

You have managed to take all interpretation and logic out of 2.00....

Ball hits natural object to the ground within the infield (with in the baselines), then kicks foul without touching anything it is foul.

Quit with the numbers game..

 

OK then, but out of the definitions in 2.00 for fair ball and foul ball, the only reference to a ball touching an object is in foul ball, with one possibility for a foul the ball touching an object foreign to the natural ground while on or over foul territory.

 

I only used the numbers as an illustration, because my illustration skills with actual pictures are somewhat limited.