Unraveling an unravelable play

[ricka56]

This review took over 10 minutes...tough spot for the crew.

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/63817564/v34268385

 

Perhaps they should amend the IR policy to let original call(s) stand when the play isn't fixable, like this play.

[basejester]

From common sense, I don't think a run should score on this play.  The defense shouldn't suffer from an umpire mistake.

 

It's the same reason you can't call foul and then, after replay determines the ball was fair, keep an out.  The players have already reacted to the call.

 

Assuming replay continues on a play like this, I'd say the best thing is for the umpires to judge what would have happened without the mistake, like 7.06(b) for obstruction.  In this case, I think it's easy to say the result  would have been a double play without the mistake.  Other times it will be very difficult.

 

I agree that no review at all would be better yet.

[Jimurray]

The question is, was F2 reacting to the safe call. It seems to me that he was focused on the throw from F3 who should have been yelling "tag". Or did they both have enough time to process that the call was safe on the runner and thus thought a force was still in effect.

[Sayhey]

Thanks for the video. I was watching this game. Bob Melvin said the umpires did their best in a tough situation during the post game. Carapazza was screened by F-3. U-2 was screened by R-1. Mechanic - is this U-1 call or U-2? Carapazza hesitated. Was he waiting to see if Miller was going to make the call? Miller made no call, so Carapazza signaled safe, no tag. I do not believe Voet, the A's catcher saw Carapazza signal safe. By the time Carapazza signaled the throw was on the way to home. The A's had no one at 1st base

The catcher had no play after receiving the throw with his foot on the plate. He could have tagged r-3. A's post game pointed out that F-3 should have tagged 1st base after tagging R-1. Post game announcers thought 1st baseman should know that he tagged R-1 and go to the bag to retire batter/runner and end inning. Let the review show that R-1 was tagged

[Richvee]

MLB needs to rethink the idea of allowing review on a play that happens in the middle of continuous action. As in this example, so many variables arise, because the actions of players after the call in question, are contingent on that call in question. Change that call, and all  playing action following that call would have/could have changed. It's impossible to rule on such things fairly. 

[basejester]

I have no doubt that he was reacting to the safe call.  I don't see any other plausible explanation.

[Chip]

Allowing the run to score in that case is just silly. I also read elsewhere that Melvin was told that a protest wouldn't be allowed anyway since the play was reviewed. That makes no sense either. I don't see how a video review absolves the participants of being questioned about the application of the rules. 

 

I was cautiously in favor of expanded IR when it was announced, but the more things like this that I see, the less I like it. There are too many reviews and too many end up with bizarre results or decisions based on freeze frames and best guesses. If it were used to just overturn blatantly bad calls that were easily remedied, that would be fine. But as it is being executed now just doesn't sit well.

[bam]

I have no doubt that he was reacting to the safe call.  I don't see any other plausible explanation.

Never ever doubt what nobody is sure about.

And yeah, I've NEVER seen a baseball player do something that doesn't make any sense is hindsight.

[umpstu]

One word, FUBAR!  Ok, WOW as well.

[umpstu]

 

I have no doubt that he was reacting to the safe call.  I don't see any other plausible explanation.

Never ever doubt what nobody is sure about.

And yeah, I've NEVER seen a baseball player do something that doesn't make any sense is hindsight.

 

Like bases loaded, one out and the batter hits a pop fly between the pitcher and catcher.  Easy infield fly call, right.  No, R3 is unaware of the situation and runs right into a tag by the catcher to end the game.  And we get hollered at.

[goody14]

Post game announcers thought 1st baseman should know that he tagged R-1 and go to the bag to retire batter/runner and end inning. Let the review show that R-1 was tagged

^^^^This^^^^

 

By now, you have to know replay can help you.  Either go touch 1B or yell "tag, tag, tag" when you throw home.

 

Someone posted an article that Maddon of the Rays was having his guys make extra throws to get "4th outs" during spring training preparing for replay.  This is the world they live in, be prepared for it.

 

Like the manager says in Almost Famous - "I cannot predict the rainy day, but I can have the best umbrella".

[afaber12]

It seems even PU was unsure what happened on the play: you can see he is looking at the plate to see that it would be an out if forced/safe if not, but looks up presumably towards U1 to see what the call was there before signalling. (BTW: That's a good tip for BU when R1 steals on a 3-ball count. If you're not 100% on what the pitch was called, check with your partner before making the call that you might have to overturn.)

 

What would we have thought on this play if the result of the review was that R1 was out on the tag but R2 and R3 were returned rather than advancing, rather than ruling R3 either out at the plate or scoring on the play. Presumably the ruling was that the RR guys couldn't be certain that the play at the plate would have resulted in an out. But why presume that R3 would have continued if he'd seen both U1 call out and a throw home? 

 

I think we can agree that regardless of what was ruled on this particular situation, someone was going to be mighty peeved, and kinda surprising no one was tossed. Also, first time the offensive manager has challenged a call of safe on their runner, right?

[Sayhey]

Bases were loaded with 1 out. 1st baseman interviewed after game said he was going home

And just flicked his glove out there to see if he could get an out. Catcher was expecting a throw and a force out. 1st baseman threw before Carapazza called no tag.1st baseman threw home because he was not sure the umpires were going to give him an out on the tag.

[Richvee]

 

Post game announcers thought 1st baseman should know that he tagged R-1 and go to the bag to retire batter/runner and end inning. Let the review show that R-1 was tagged

^^^^This^^^^

 

By now, you have to know replay can help you.  Either go touch 1B or yell "tag, tag, tag" when you throw home.

 

Someone posted an article that Maddon of the Rays was having his guys make extra throws to get "4th outs" during spring training preparing for replay.  This is the world they live in, be prepared for it.

 

Like the manager says in Almost Famous - "I cannot predict the rainy day, but I can have the best umbrella".

 

The bolded part exemplifies my issue with IR as it is now. IR should HELP to get the game calls right, however, in the same breath, it should not CHANGE the way the game is played at all. 

[Sayhey]

When your pitcher is idle for 10 minutes, that could change the game.

[ricka56]

IR should HELP to get the game calls right, however, in the same breath, it should not CHANGE the way the game is played at all. 

Pandoro's box has been opened. I can't see any way back to how the game was played.

 

These delays on the nutcutter on the bases (1B and force outs) drive me cuts...they take too long. If you can't see that the call is wrong in 2 or 3 IR views, let the play stand. They should make it like one of those peep shows where the curtain closes when time is up...uhhh, errr,  or so I'm been told.

[afaber12]

 

IR should HELP to get the game calls right, however, in the same breath, it should not CHANGE the way the game is played at all. 

Pandoro's box has been opened. I can't see any way back to how the game was played.

 

These delays on the nutcutter on the bases (1B and force outs) drive me cuts...they take too long. If you can't see that the call is wrong in 2 or 3 IR views, let the play stand. They should make it like one of those peep shows where the curtain closes when time is up...uhhh, errr,  or so I'm been told.

 

 

Don't know if I've said on here or not, but I tend to think that if after seeing one, maybe two angles there's nothing to suggest an obviously incorrect call, then leave it as is. If those first couple of shots show something might be amiss then keep going. I also think that if you put some sort of limitation in place that's vaguely along those sorts of lines, and so you see fewer calls get overturned, managers will eventually stop challenging the really close calls because it won't be worth it.

[Chip]

IR has turned major league managers into first-year Daddy coaches in rec ball. They want to come out and ask questions about every close play. The only difference is that instead of wanting a partner to "overrule" the first call they didn't like in one of our games, they're hoping New York will do it.

[Dash Riprock]

When a call is reversed with no equitable fix and one team must get screwed, it is best to pick the HC you would like to get rid of and screw his team.

[johnnyg08]

When your pitcher is idle for 10 minutes, that could change the game.

 

Just like a 10+ minute inning when they're hitting.

[johnnyg08]

Welcome to the world of replay.  Many of us predicted these issues.  

[zoops]

What became of the protest?  Or did Oakland win?

[maven]

OAK won. Protest moot.

[Replacematt]

When your pitcher is idle for 10 minutes, that could change the game.

 

Just like a 10+ minute inning when they're hitting.

Some of us don't allow that to happen. We have lives, you know.

[Sayhey]

Nothing like a half inning when your team is hitting. When your team is hitting you sit and relax and drink. You go into the clubhouse and put a fresh jersey on. Grab a snack or drink.

Put a cool towel on your neck. Wipe your face and arms down. Cup of coffee maybe.

Yeah, it's just like standing on the mound for 10 minutes.