Double call at C.W.S.

[Sayhey]

Simultaneous fair and foul call

Anteater vs Longhorn game

Tony Walsh is working the plate.

High 2 hopper down 3rd base line

U-3 has good timing and makes an aggressive fair call. The one where your right arm crosses your body and takes your eyes to right center field

He probably never made eye contact with his partner. Tony Walsh, with a mic on, calls the ball foul. The announcer is telling an unrelated story at the time and stops his story to say, " the plate umpire has just overruled the 3rd base umpire".

Not another word was said about it.

The defense, as far as we know did not argue.

The batter threw his hands up as he walked back to home plate. That was odd, since the 3rd baseman made a great play and threw the batter/runner out. The plate umpire is taking the ball all the way to the bag and the 3rd base umpire is taking the ball at the cut. They forgot to pre game this at Omaha or they did pre game it and fell back on old habits. We give up responsibility for fair/foul at the cut as a plate umpire. Why make a call on a ball 80 feet from your position when U-1 is 20 -25 feet from the ball

No matter what mechanic is being used the crew members must make eye contact before a call is made. I thought it was odd that the coach did not argue. It took an out away. It was also odd that the announcer mentioned it in passing. This is not a common occurrence.

[Haid D' Salaami]

Problem 1.... fair or foul to the base....

 

I do know they taught you this at Jim Evans... and if you get to the point in your career were you work D1, you'll take the ball to the base.

[noumpere]

The coach didn't argue because once it's called foul (in the infield), it's foul.  Nothing the coach can do -- save your bullets for when they might be useful.

 

The runner might have stopped / slowed down upon hearing the call -- otherwise he might have been safe -- that might be why he threw his hands up.

[MidAmUmp]

We give up responsibility for fair/foul at the cut as a plate umpire. Why make a call on a ball 80 feet from your position when U-1 is 20 -25 feet from the ball

I wasn't aware of this.  Thank you for enlightening me.  Please notify the NCAA to change the error in their CCA Manual where it says the plate umpire has fair/foul up to the bag and the base umpire has the base and beyond.

[noumpere]

 

We give up responsibility for fair/foul at the cut as a plate umpire. Why make a call on a ball 80 feet from your position when U-1 is 20 -25 feet from the ball

I wasn't aware of this.  Thank you for enlightening me.  Please notify the NCAA to change the error in their CCA Manual where it says the plate umpire has fair/foul up to the bag and the base umpire has the base and beyond.

 

snicker.

 

I sure hope you start teaching this at your clinics.  Precede it with "according to seyhey ..."

[Fittske24]

 

snicker.

 

 

I sure hope you start teaching this at your clinics.  Precede it with "according to seyhey ..."

 

^^^^^^^^^Ouch.....thats going to leave a mark!

[maven]

 

We give up responsibility for fair/foul at the cut as a plate umpire. Why make a call on a ball 80 feet from your position when U-1 is 20 -25 feet from the ball

I wasn't aware of this.  Thank you for enlightening me.  Please notify the NCAA to change the error in their CCA Manual where it says the plate umpire has fair/foul up to the bag and the base umpire has the base and beyond.

 

 

He said "we" do this. Do you know who he's talking about?

[Sayhey]

Maybe you can e-mail the third base umpire and "enlighten " him about your C.C.A. Manual. He had not been enlightened by you yet and he may be grateful for your instruction. He is definitely a Div. 1 umpire and he definitely made a dynamic fair call on a ball that was 10 feet from the bag on the home plate side. He definitely thought that it was his call. He did not make eye contact with his partner. His partner thought it was his call. This ball, when gloved by the third baseman, was not near the bag, it was on the line at the cut about 10 feet from the bag. Slow motion showed the ball to be fair when touched. The C.C.A. Manual changes mechanics as umpiring evolves. Mechanics and pre pitch positioning is a work in progress as umpires experiment with different positions and evaluate the success or weaknesses of each position or mechanic.

A double call at a C.W.S. Game is rare and is a big deal. The post game conversation would be interesting. I was just wondering if anyone saw it.

Trying to stimulate an intelligent conversation and see how you work the situation.

A double call is certainly something you want to avoid. I felt bad for the crew that it happened.

I was not trying to "enlighten" anyone. That is a bad read and a blown call on your part. I am on the site to learn, not teach. I just threw out there that our local group gives the ball up at the cut and the field umpire, who is much closer to the ball takes over when the ball reaches the cutout

We may decide to change and go back to plate umpire all the way to the bag.we are evaluating the success rate of the mechanic. We are not governed by C.C.A. Manual. I was evaluated by the N.C.C.A. Head of umpire training and the person responsible for the manual in November

I had a poor camp due to personal family issues

My mind was not into it. I was not hired but I will try again. Many M.L.B. Umpires take the ball at the cut as a field umpire. Seems like common sense since he is so much closer. If you are blocked out by a batter/runner or runner, or fielder and you can't make the call you can make eye contact with your partner and he can make the call. Whatever mechanic you use it is important to make eye contact with your partner. Partner awareness is key. I wish you success with whatever mechanic you use. Gotta go. Got the plate in 2 hours.

[umpstu]

 

 

We give up responsibility for fair/foul at the cut as a plate umpire. Why make a call on a ball 80 feet from your position when U-1 is 20 -25 feet from the ball

I wasn't aware of this.  Thank you for enlightening me.  Please notify the NCAA to change the error in their CCA Manual where it says the plate umpire has fair/foul up to the bag and the base umpire has the base and beyond.

 

snicker.

 

I sure hope you start teaching this at your clinics.  Precede it with "according to seyhey ..."

 

No, precede with "according to dude..."  I sleigh me.

[umpstu]

Maybe you can e-mail the third base umpire and "enlighten " him about your C.C.A. Manual. He had not been enlightened by you yet and he may be grateful for your instruction. He is definitely a Div. 1 umpire and he definitely made a dynamic fair call on a ball that was 10 feet from the bag on the home plate side. He definitely thought that it was his call. He did not make eye contact with his partner. His partner thought it was his call. This ball, when gloved by the third baseman, was not near the bag, it was on the line at the cut about 10 feet from the bag. Slow motion showed the ball to be fair when touched. The C.C.A. Manual changes mechanics as umpiring evolves. Mechanics and pre pitch positioning is a work in progress as umpires experiment with different positions and evaluate the success or weaknesses of each position or mechanic.

A double call at a C.W.S. Game is rare and is a big deal. The post game conversation would be interesting. I was just wondering if anyone saw it.

Trying to stimulate an intelligent conversation and see how you work the situation.

A double call is certainly something you want to avoid. I felt bad for the crew that it happened.

I was not trying to "enlighten" anyone. That is a bad read and a blown call on your part. I am on the site to learn, not teach. I just threw out there that our local group gives the ball up at the cut and the field umpire, who is much closer to the ball takes over when the ball reaches the cutout

We may decide to change and go back to plate umpire all the way to the bag.we are evaluating the success rate of the mechanic. We are not governed by C.C.A. Manual. I was evaluated by the N.C.C.A. Head of umpire training and the person responsible for the manual in November

I had a poor camp due to personal family issues

My mind was not into it. I was not hired but I will try again. Many M.L.B. Umpires take the ball at the cut as a field umpire. Seems like common sense since he is so much closer. If you are blocked out by a batter/runner or runner, or fielder and you can't make the call you can make eye contact with your partner and he can make the call. Whatever mechanic you use it is important to make eye contact with your partner. Partner awareness is key. I wish you success with whatever mechanic you use. Gotta go. Got the plate in 2 hours.

Have a good game

[Haid D' Salaami]

Im not even sure how to respond...

 

maybe the 3rd base umpire got a little quick?.. it happens.. I'm sure the post game was probably pretty funny as in that level there is no " hey you took my call on the fair/foul".. 

 

instead it was probably really quick but not mean like your making it out to be.

 

So in College baseball we use a manual called the CCA. you can purchase them from Honigs, and Ump-attire and also referee.com. they are $19 and worth the money. 

 

A double call on that is not that big of a deal. or not as big as your making it out to be... 

[Sayhey]

I disagree. A double call in the college World Series is a big deal. It's called a crew breakdown

Partner awareness failure is a big deal.

It took an out away. Nothing in my post suggested that the posy game would be "mean", as you say. I said,"interesting". I have several C.C.A. Manuals and was evaluated by the man responsible for the manual. The Haid D Salaami user name is juvenile. Grow up. Are you a clown?

[Mad Mike]

Now that's funny a clown who hides the salami! 

[grayhawk]

I prefer M'Balz Es-Hari or I-Zheet M'Drurz

 

And Sayhey, lighten up or your going to get the nickname:  Mustaf Herod Apyur Poupr

 

[Haid D' Salaami]

I disagree. A double call in the college World Series is a big deal. It's called a crew breakdown

Partner awareness failure is a big deal.

It took an out away. Nothing in my post suggested that the posy game would be "mean", as you say. I said,"interesting". I have several C.C.A. Manuals and was evaluated by the man responsible for the manual. The Haid D Salaami user name is juvenile. Grow up. Are you a clown?

I might be a clown....LOL  but since it bothers you i wont change it anytime soon,...LOL

 

BTW who ( 1 guy) is responsible for writing the CCA..... cause its called the Collegiate commissioners Assc. which means all of the commissioners.. not 1...

I prefer M'Balz Es-Hari or I-Zheet M'Drurz

 

And Sayhey, lighten up or your going to get the nickname:  Mustaf Herod Apyur Poupr

 

I'm glad some one on here actually has a sense of humor.. instead of Seyhey who wants to be super serious all the time..LOL

[Haid D' Salaami]

Also seyhey when you get out of coach pitch and move into baseball were the players shave, you'll start to work with guys who are professional and would understand a double call as " not that serious"... stuff happens dude.. lighten up cowboy.

[Thunderheads]

I disagree. A double call in the college World Series is a big deal. It's called a crew breakdown

Partner awareness failure is a big deal.

It took an out away. Nothing in my post suggested that the posy game would be "mean", as you say. I said,"interesting". I have several C.C.A. Manuals and was evaluated by the man responsible for the manual. The Haid D Salaami user name is juvenile. Grow up. Are you a clown?

calm down Sayhey ...........

[LMSANS]

Let's get back on topic.....

[Majordave]

All this name calling and seriousness with no sense of humor has no place on this website.  So, in the interest of continuing the discussion.....

 

SayHey (as acrimonious as he is) has a point that is worthy of discussion.  

 

The CCA manual is the college umpire's mechanics "bible" but it is by no means the absolute final word on how to work a game.  It is constantly being updated and revised.  The subject of fair/foul up to the bag has come up with me and some of my partners before and on this and/or other umpiring websites.

 

I have heard, and tried (in summer or non-conference/inconsequential) games the following:

 

Plate umpire takes the ball to the cutout and base umpire (two man or three man), if on the line in A or D) takes it after that UNLESS the ball's flight forces the base umpire on that foul line to vacate.  i.e. screaming liner right at him, bounding ball right at him.   If the base umpire has to move his feet to avoid the ball or a fielder then it is the plate umpire's responsibility.     Logic is easy on the moving feet issue.  Similar logic to SayHey's offering about the cutout.   It's closer to the base umpire.  It is a well marked location/landmark for the two umpires to determine who's ball it is AND the cutout is place on the field not as crucial to the call as the base is.

 

We have all seen the ball that gets to the base and cuts foul or vice-versa.  The bounding ball that seems to bound dangerously close to fair and foul at the same time requiring a very focused view.  Generally when inches count, closer is better.  Like trying to get close on a tag play and staying back on a force play.  In my mind it is simpler to understand and apply than the ball to the base logic we currently make fair-foul calls with.

 

Anyway, that's my argument for a possible modification.  I am not in a position to influence the manual writers since I am not a conference umpire nor a pro-school graduate but I am a doctorate degree holder with a certification in higher education who has made a living out of the written and spoken word as well as educating others-older children and adults- with the written and spoken word.

 

 

My .02..... your mileage will invariably vary.  But let's discuss like professionals without the name-calling and back-biting like children.  However, if you want to throw darts at me, feel free.  I have been in leadership roles my entire adult life and am used to being attacked, chastised, disagreed with, called names, etc.  Don't mess with me man!  I'm a lawyer!  (Robin Williams as Peter Panning, Esq./Peter Pan in Hook) 

[Sayhey]

Major Dave, I do not know why anyone would want to throw darts at you. Your words were good and solid. I know that many umpires around the nation wonder why the wing umpires take the ball up to the bag. I am part of a very progressive high school group that works 3-man every game. We have many college umpires in our group.

I work N.A.I.A. Ball and Legion ball and we have college summer ball with some div. 1 players on our local team and visiting teams. We are not give rented by Tom Hiler's manual. Tom lives in Mountain Home,Idaho and is the head of umpire training for N.C.A.A.. You can meet Tom and be evaluated by him at the finest camp in USA, the Black and Blue camp in SACRAMENTO. Next camp is in Nov. Tom will hire you if you are good enough. You may start out at Junior College ball or Div. 3. Umpiring is always evolving. I.E.

R-1 is safe at 2nd base on a double play try

Shortstop throws to 1st base to get batter/runner

1st baseman throws across diamond to get R-1 who got up at 2nd base and headed for 3rd base

C.C.A. manual changed this mechanic and advises U.I.C. To "rotate" to third and make a call

This goes against the mantra of NO rotation unless the ball is batted into the outfield

Some groups like this mechanic and use it

Other groups think it is a poor mechanic leaving home plate unprotected. We are suppose to have an umpire ahead and waiting for a runner.

In the discussion play the C.W.S. U-3 and plate umpire were not on the same page. The reversal of a dynamic fair call to foul cost the defense an out. In my opinion that is a big deal. We are giving the ball up at the cut as an experiment. We think it is better coverage to let the wing umpires call bounding balls over the bag or near the bag.

No one in our group thinks we have all the answers. That is why we sit under the teaching of Billy Haze and Scott Higgins and Billy Joe Speck and Joe Burleson, who may be the #1 college umpire in America. We pay $80 to view Ump Hubs videos hoping we may pick up 1 or 2 tips to improve our game. We go to Jim Evans camps to learn and bring info home. We are students constantly learning. I am on Umpire Empire to learn and become a better umpire. I am not on the site to be your buddy or pal. I have a lot of serious stuff going on. My life is not about humor right now. My best friend is an umpire. I met him through umpiring and am thankful to have him as a friend. Some of the biggest pricks I have ever met are umpires. I leave them behind and press forward. Umpires are peculiar people. Some are like saints and some are miserable S.O.B.s

[Sayhey]

Meant to say we are not locked into Tom Hiler's manual. The C.C.A. Manual

[Fittske24]

Meant to say we are not locked into Tom Hiler's manual. The C.C.A. Manual

 

The C.C.A. manual is not simply Tom Hiler's manual. Input and changes to the C.C.A. manual come from all of the conference coordinators, NCAA Umpire coordinators (DI-DIII) and Tom Hiler who is Director of umpire training for the NCAA. I would be concerned If your college association does not use the C.C.A. manual as its primary mechanics standard while working college leel games. That may work for Juco and NAIA ball, but if you expect to work at he Div-l level be it conference or non-conference, the C.C.A. standard is what you will get evaluated on.

[Haid D' Salaami]

FYI... this Tom Hiler's manual has been out for 10 years now.. wwwaaaayyyy before Tom was doing the Umpire Development group.

 

I think that if you work enough baseball at sometime in your career you will have a double call, maybe on a fair/foul, or maybe on a catch no catch in the infield. It will happen.. just like calling someone out on 2 strikes.

[Majordave]

Why don't we quit arguing about the manual and whose manual it is.

Let's agree it is the Bible for upper echelon collegiate umpiring. All levels of collegiate for that matter.

Now, let's discuss the pros and cons of the mechanics outlined in the manual.

First topic: the fair/foul to the bag that started this topic. I and SayHey have said our piece. What says anyone else? (Do NOT say..... CCA manual says....blah, blah, blah). Think for yourselves dammit! What do you think? And why?

Second topic: 2 Man Mechanics. Why does base umpire have to be in A with no one on? Why not B? It's good enough for most calls when runner on base. Why not all the time? Would cut down on distance to cover for plate umpires. No going out on balls in essentially right field only. No one goes out to left in 2 man ever. Hell, most of my lazy assed partners never go out into right from A anyway.

Just trying to spark discussion. Not arguing or personal attacks. Again, effin think for yourselves. What do you THINK? ( If you can).

[umpstu]

Why don't we quit arguing about the manual and whose manual it is.

Let's agree it is the Bible for upper echelon collegiate umpiring. All levels of collegiate for that matter.

Now, let's discuss the pros and cons of the mechanics outlined in the manual.

First topic: the fair/foul to the bag that started this topic. I and SayHey have said our piece. What says anyone else? (Do NOT say..... CCA manual says....blah, blah, blah). Think for yourselves dammit! What do you think? And why?

Second topic: 2 Man Mechanics. Why does base umpire have to be in A with no one on? Why not B? It's good enough for most calls when runner on base. Why not all the time? Would cut down on distance to cover for plate umpires. No going out on balls in essentially right field only. No one goes out to left in 2 man ever. Hell, most of my lazy assed partners never go out into right from A anyway.

Just trying to spark discussion. Not arguing or personal attacks. Again, effin think for yourselves. What do you THINK? ( If you can).

In a you have a much better look at pulled foot and swipe tags.  I try not to go out on balls to right field unless there is a real bad situation that would come out of it.  Such as those benders right on the line or three players converging.  On fair foul pop up situations I try to give those to the PU as he can see these just as well as I can and now he doesn't have to run so far.  Of course this is pre-gamed. I don't necessarily agree with the PU going to third on a ball on the infield either.  Swipe tag, pulled foot, running lane violation.