Balk

[Sayhey]

Balk called with 1st baseman off bag . The pitcher had stepped off the rubber.

I contend that it makes no difference if the pitcher steps off. Umpires and coaches want to say that a pitcher becomes an infielder when he steps off and can do anything he wants too

I say that is inaccurate. i.e. You can not step off the rubber and simulate a wind up or a pitch. I am happy to know if I am wrong. Then I can get it right next time. Thanks for everyone's time on here. Umpire Empire has made me a better umpire

[Mike Prince]

While the "it's legal because it's not specifically illegal" explanation works, the more appropriate explanation is, "That's nothing" - if a coach is going to argue the lack of a call, that's his business and your potential warning/EJ to deal with. Not every call or no call needs an explanation with a rule cite; that is what game management is all about.

Sent using Tapatalk

[JaxRolo]

Wow! How sad!

[ALStripes17]

This kind of back and forth sounds like conversations I have with the rat coaches... can we eject yet for being 'Prolonged'?

[goody14]

8.01 (e) 

If the pitcher removes his pivot foot from contact with the pitcher’s plate by stepping backward with that foot, he thereby becomes an infielder and if he makes a

wild throw from that position, it shall be considered the same as a wild throw by any other infielder.

 

 

 

So this establishes that once he steps off the rubber he is the same as an infielder.  So I would reasonably say the pitching provisions (eg making a throw to a base and not a fielder) no longer apply.

8.02 (c )

Intentionally delay the game by throwing the ball to players other than the catcher, when the batter is in position, except in an attempt to retire a runner.

 

 

 

Not sure how this would apply as the pitcher is actually trying to retire a runner.  Not that it should matter given he is off the rubber.

 

In my mind, once he disengages he can do the chicken dance followed to a throw to F3 20 feet off the bag.  I might think it is weird...but weird is not illegal.

[Thunderheads]

This kind of back and forth sounds like conversations I have with the rat coaches... can we eject yet for being 'Prolonged'?

We're getting close Al, we're getting close ....  

[ALStripes17]

This kind of back and forth sounds like conversations I have with the rat coaches... can we eject yet for being 'Prolonged'?

We're getting close Al, we're getting close ....

We keep quoting OBR, so dugout prison is not an option .... I'm getting antsy

[maven]

The easiest explanation is that the restrictions in 8.05(a-d) all start with the same 6 words: "The pitcher, while touching his plate..."

 

Once F1 legally disengages, he is no longer a pitcher touching his plate, and the restrictions of 8.05(a-d) no longer apply. He may throw to a fielder near or away from a base because those acts are not prohibited.

 

8.02(c ) specifies that intentionally delaying the game by throwing to other fielders is illegal. The OP does not describe a pitcher whose intention is to delay the game, so this provision does not apply.

[SoCal Lurker]

 

This seems mind-numbingly simple to me.  "He stepped off coach.  It's nothing."  End of discussion.

[FleasOf1000Camels]

How dare you attempt to bring logic and reason in to this conversation.

[MPLSMatt]

"He stopped off - he's an infielder now, Skip"  aught to do the trick.  

 

Yes, there are exceptions to this rule (notably, simulating a pitch) but they are clearly laid out and designed to prevent ambiguity between on/off the rubber, and wouldn't apply in this case. 

 

At some point, you have to go with "That's the call, let's play ball" or let him file a protest.  I pride myself on being approachable (especially in youth games where Daddy coaches don't know the rules), but there has to be a point where I'm the umpire who has studied this stuff and they can either trust that I got it right, or protest.  You're not there to give a seminar, your there to call the game and keep it moving (which is a POE in virtually every league across the country right now).  

[Sayhey]

If you read the thread carefully you will see that I thought The pitcher was in contact

I called. Balk. In contact is definitely a balk. The thread clearly shows that I was unsure about this action with a pitcher off the rubber. There are restrictions for a pitcher when he steps off. He must seperate his hands he can not simulate a pitch or a wind up. Since 1st base is treated differently than 2nd base and third base I thought maybe there was a restiction for the pitcher in this very rare case. This situation does not happen often. If you read the thread carefully you will see I wanted to learn so I could get it right next time

I thought Matts attitude was arrogant. I think most of you are Arrogant. Just because you say it does not make it so. Jaska/ Roder is endorsed by many pro umpires Jeff Nelson uses it as a textbook when he teaches. Joe Brinkman owned an umpire school and he endorses Jaska/Roder

I apologize for my arrogance on this thread.

I was like a dog with a bone when I began to see that I had blown a call. As for explanations, I had a rookie coach who was a gentleman and asked for an explanation. This took 30 seconds. It was the wrong explanation and I will get back with him on this rule. Finally, just because another umpire does not immediately agree with your opinion does not mean he is an ass and unteachabke

Matt and I will never work a game together and that is a good thing. Not everyone is going to get a long. I will strive to be more teachable and be more if a gentleman on this site. I wish you all a good day.

[Replacematt]

If you read the thread carefully you will see that I thought The pitcher was in contact

I called. Balk. In contact is definitely a balk. The thread clearly shows that I was unsure about this action with a pitcher off the rubber. There are restrictions for a pitcher when he steps off. He must seperate his hands he can not simulate a pitch or a wind up. Since 1st base is treated differently than 2nd base and third base I thought maybe there was a restiction for the pitcher in this very rare case. This situation does not happen often. If you read the thread carefully you will see I wanted to learn so I could get it right next time

I thought Matts attitude was arrogant. I think most of you are Arrogant. Just because you say it does not make it so. Jaska/ Roder is endorsed by many pro umpires Jeff Nelson uses it as a textbook when he teaches. Joe Brinkman owned an umpire school and he endorses Jaska/Roder

I apologize for my arrogance on this thread.

I was like a dog with a bone when I began to see that I had blown a call. As for explanations, I had a rookie coach who was a gentleman and asked for an explanation. This took 30 seconds. It was the wrong explanation and I will get back with him on this rule. Finally, just because another umpire does not immediately agree with your opinion does not mean he is an ass and unteachabke

Matt and I will never work a game together and that is a good thing. Not everyone is going to get a long. I will strive to be more teachable and be more if a gentleman on this site. I wish you all a good day.

 

Would it help if I told you I personally knew two of the four names that you've mentioned? For the record, J/R is a tool to help you, not official interpretations. It has lost some of its luster due to its conflict with either authoritative or more credible sources. That's not to say it's useless, but there's more that you need to have besides it.

 

Here's the thing...if you are claiming that "most of us" are arrogant, chances are it's not us that's the problem. If you want a look at where this thread went downhill, it was post #14. There were multiple attempts by more than one person to get the relevant facts and to get you to the right spot, but you chose to argue.

[noumpere]

If you read the thread carefully you will see that I thought The pitcher was in contact

I called. Balk. In contact is definitely a balk. The thread clearly shows that I was unsure about this action with a pitcher off the rubber. There are restrictions for a pitcher when he steps off. He must seperate his hands he can not simulate a pitch or a wind up. Since 1st base is treated differently than 2nd base and third base I thought maybe there was a restiction for the pitcher in this very rare case. This situation does not happen often. If you read the thread carefully you will see I wanted to learn so I could get it right next time

I thought Matts attitude was arrogant. I think most of you are Arrogant. Just because you say it does not make it so. Jaska/ Roder is endorsed by many pro umpires Jeff Nelson uses it as a textbook when he teaches. Joe Brinkman owned an umpire school and he endorses Jaska/Roder

I apologize for my arrogance on this thread.

I was like a dog with a bone when I began to see that I had blown a call. As for explanations, I had a rookie coach who was a gentleman and asked for an explanation. This took 30 seconds. It was the wrong explanation and I will get back with him on this rule. Finally, just because another umpire does not immediately agree with your opinion does not mean he is an ass and unteachabke

Matt and I will never work a game together and that is a good thing. Not everyone is going to get a long. I will strive to be more teachable and be more if a gentleman on this site. I wish you all a good day.

FWIW, when I am seeking an answer, I ask and then wait for multiple responses.  Sure, the first one might be wrong -- if it is others will correct him.  I find that if I respond to the first response in 10 minutes and then again in 10 more minutes etc. it comes across as being defensive, especially if the first response is right,  and the thread goes to hell.

 

A message board is not a Fox News / CNN split-screen debate  -- don't treat it as such.

[maven]

I called. Balk. In contact is definitely a balk. The thread clearly shows that I was unsure about this action with a pitcher off the rubber. There are restrictions for a pitcher when he steps off. He must seperate his hands he can not simulate a pitch or a wind up.

 

Careful: he's not required to separate the hands when he steps off, he's required to separate them before he re-engages (in order to prevent a quick pitch).

 

The difference between arrogance and confidence is partly attitude, and determining a poster's attitude on an internet forum can be tricky. I can think, for example, that a poster is incorrect without thinking him a bad umpire or a DB (yeah, you know who you are!).

 

Another part of the difference is knowledge.

[Thunderheads]

 

If you read the thread carefully you will see that I thought The pitcher was in contact

I called. Balk. In contact is definitely a balk. The thread clearly shows that I was unsure about this action with a pitcher off the rubber. There are restrictions for a pitcher when he steps off. He must seperate his hands he can not simulate a pitch or a wind up. Since 1st base is treated differently than 2nd base and third base I thought maybe there was a restiction for the pitcher in this very rare case. This situation does not happen often. If you read the thread carefully you will see I wanted to learn so I could get it right next time

I thought Matts attitude was arrogant. I think most of you are Arrogant. Just because you say it does not make it so. Jaska/ Roder is endorsed by many pro umpires Jeff Nelson uses it as a textbook when he teaches. Joe Brinkman owned an umpire school and he endorses Jaska/Roder

I apologize for my arrogance on this thread.

I was like a dog with a bone when I began to see that I had blown a call. As for explanations, I had a rookie coach who was a gentleman and asked for an explanation. This took 30 seconds. It was the wrong explanation and I will get back with him on this rule. Finally, just because another umpire does not immediately agree with your opinion does not mean he is an ass and unteachabke

Matt and I will never work a game together and that is a good thing. Not everyone is going to get a long. I will strive to be more teachable and be more if a gentleman on this site. I wish you all a good day.

 

Would it help if I told you I personally knew two of the four names that you've mentioned? For the record, J/R is a tool to help you, not official interpretations. It has lost some of its luster due to its conflict with either authoritative or more credible sources. That's not to say it's useless, but there's more that you need to have besides it.

 

Here's the thing...if you are claiming that "most of us" are arrogant, chances are it's not us that's the problem. If you want a look at where this thread went downhill, it was post #14. There were multiple attempts by more than one person to get the relevant facts and to get you to the right spot, but you chose to argue.

 

^^^^^^^^THIS

 

AND .... Maven's post #33.

 

Sayhey, you clearly point out that you don't think an F1 can legally disengage from the rubber (disengage pickoff move) and throw to the first baseman who isn't on the bag because he miscommunicated.  YES HE CAN.  He can also choose NOT to throw over because he's disengaged.

 

Go read 8.05 .... it all discusses WHILE TOUCHING THE PITCHERS PLATE

[SoCal Lurker]

If you read the thread carefully you will see that I thought The pitcher was in contact

I called. Balk. . .  .I thought Matts attitude was arrogant. I think most of you are Arrogant.

 

Balk called with 1st baseman off bag . The pitcher had stepped off the rubber.

I contend that it makes no difference if the pitcher steps off.

[ALStripes17]

Ask question, see responses, analyze responses, repeat until satisfied, say "Thank you."

The 'analyze the responses' part was missed.

We can provide cites and references all day, but if one refuses to do some personal research in addition to information provided, our responses are futile.

[JaxRolo]

This thread had become useless. How do I block it out!!!

[Umpire in Chief]

Reel it in guys...

[Sayhey]

Matt, you were right. I was wrong. I was being a dumbass and trying to justify my call, which I blew

Thank you for your time and good advice

This thread, which was started by me caused some sharp remarks from some, which I provoked. I take responsibility for that. Umpire in Chief, my apologies. I let my ego get away from me. To be fair, some of the replies were passive aggressive, which is a form of anger. Hopefully we all learn to be more respectful to one another as we move on with better and more healthy threads. Hope you have a great weekend.

[Thunderheads]

Matt, you were right. I was wrong. I was being a dumbass and trying to justify my call, which I blew

Thank you for your time and good advice

This thread, which was started by me caused some sharp remarks from some, which I provoked. I take responsibility for that. Umpire in Chief, my apologies. I let my ego get away from me. To be fair, some of the replies were passive aggressive, which is a form of anger. Hopefully we all learn to be more respectful to one another as we move on with better and more healthy threads. Hope you have a great weekend.

Sayhey...

Good job ....however.....the passive aggressive comments came when you got defensive.

Its all good.....

Jeff - via Tapatalk

[Sayhey]

Jeff, thanks for taking the time to respond.

You Are right about that. I asked for help and then wanted to argue when help was tendered.

Stubborn and stupid. I did not even completely read the manual I was quoting. Jaska/Roder clearly states in the beginning of the balk section that the scenario I posted about is only a balk when a pitcher is on the rubber. Thanks for your patience and kind words.