Balk

[Sayhey]

Balk called with 1st baseman off bag . The pitcher had stepped off the rubber.

I contend that it makes no difference if the pitcher steps off. Umpires and coaches want to say that a pitcher becomes an infielder when he steps off and can do anything he wants too

I say that is inaccurate. i.e. You can not step off the rubber and simulate a wind up or a pitch. I am happy to know if I am wrong. Then I can get it right next time. Thanks for everyone's time on here. Umpire Empire has made me a better umpire

[Replacematt]

Balk called with 1st baseman off bag . The pitcher had stepped off the rubber.

I contend that it makes no difference if the pitcher steps off. Umpires and coaches want to say that a pitcher becomes an infielder when he steps off and can do anything he wants too

I say that is inaccurate. i.e. You can not step off the rubber and simulate a wind up or a pitch. I am happy to know if I am wrong. Then I can get it right next time. Thanks for everyone's time on here. Umpire Empire has made me a better umpire

 

What was the infraction?

[VAUmp]

If you called a balk for throwing to an "unoccupied" base, you were wrong.

[Sayhey]

Let me be more clear. R-1. 1st baseman forgets to tell pitcher he is positioning himself behind the runner. Pitcher attempts pickoff at 1st base. When he turns he sees 1st baseman 15 feet off bag. He throws directly to 1st baseman. This is a balk in my opinion

The question is: does it matter that the pitcher stepped off the rubber before he threw to the 1st baseman?

[Replacematt]

Let me be more clear. R-1. 1st baseman forgets to tell pitcher he is positioning himself behind the runner. Pitcher attempts pickoff at 1st base. When he turns he sees 1st baseman 15 feet off bag. He throws directly to 1st baseman. This is a balk in my opinion

The question is: does it matter that the pitcher stepped off the rubber before he threw to the 1st baseman?

 

Yes. If he's on the rubber, it could be a balk; if he's not, it couldn't be.

[Sayhey]

Matt, the infraction is attempting a pickoff when the 1st baseman has no play. I.E. The 1st baseman is playing in or behind the runner.the pitcher must throw to the base or close enough to the bag that we can call it the bag.jim Evans talks about this and so does Jaska/Roder. It must be close enough that the 1st baseman can make a play

[Sayhey]

Matt, can you give me a case play or a rule

[Replacematt]

Matt, can you give me a case play or a rule

 

If he's on the rubber, you've already cited the case plays/interpretations for it being a balk. It's considered a feint to throw to a fielder not in a position to make a play.

 

If he's not, you aren't going to find one, because it's legal. Rules prohibit illegal actions, they don't specify legal actions (unless they are exceptions to illegal actions.)

[Sayhey]

Many case book situations explain to us what a legal action is. I.E. : it is legal to come out of the running lane in your last stride into 1st base. I was wondering why you consider it legal to throw to a 1st baseman who is 15 feet off the bag. To just tell me it is legal does not help me. I need to know why it is legal. Are you going to say he is an infielder?

[Replacematt]

Many case book situations explain to us what a legal action is. I.E. : it is legal to come out of the running lane in your last stride into 1st base. I was wondering why you consider it legal to throw to a 1st baseman who is 15 feet off the bag. To just tell me it is legal does not help me. I need to know why it is legal. Are you going to say he is an infielder?

 

It is legal because it isn't illegal. It is only illegal for a pitcher to feint to first (which this is) if he is on the rubber.

[Sayhey]

He did not feint a throw to 1st base, he threw to his 1st baseman who was 15-20 feet off the bag

I can not tell a coach that it is legal because it is not illegal. I need something more than that

I think it is an illegal move. I do not think it matters whether you are in contact or not. 1st base is considered a special base when pickoffs are involved.

[Replacematt]

He did not feint a throw to 1st base, he threw to his 1st baseman who was 15-20 feet off the bag

I can not tell a coach that it is legal because it is not illegal. I need something more than that

I think it is an illegal move. I do not think it matters whether you are in contact or not. 1st base is considered a special base when pickoffs are involved.

 

Let me break this down again.

 

There is no rule that says it is illegal to throw to F3 off the bag. If he is not in position to make a play, it is considered a feint to first. If F1 is on the rubber, then it is illegal to feint to first. It is not illegal to feint to first when F1 is not on the rubber.

 

Find in any rulebook anything that mentions prohibitions or restrictions for 1B when F1 is not on the rubber. All of them specifically state that infractions regarding first can only occur with F1 engaged.

 

And yes, the proper answer to a coach is indeed, "It's not illegal, therefore it's legal."

[sdix00]

If F1 doesn't have to complete a throw to 1B, then he certainly doesn't have to throw directly to the bag. The rules say IF he MUST throw, THEN he MUST throw directly to the bag (or close enough to make a play). Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

[Sayhey]

Stupid answer. You want to piss a coach off, give him a vague explanation like yours. Coaches need a logical answer. The Jaska/ Roder interpretation of the Official Rule Book was written because the official book is written in an extremely poor fashion. Page 142 of the 13th edition of Jaska/Roder was published in 2010

It reads as follows: it is a balk if a pitcher steps to first base and throws to a first baseman who, because of his distance from the base is (or would have been) unable to try a tag against the runner at first base. In my opinion Jaska/Roder is talking about an in contact pitcher here. They use the phrase," steps to first". They probably would not use this phrase if they were talking about a pitcher who was not in contact with the rubber since a pitcher off the rubber does not need to step toward a base to throw to the base.

It is unclear if a pitcher off the rubber can throw to a 1st baseman off the bag.

To say that it is legal because it is not illegal is a simplistic answer that does not satisfy me or any coach I ever met. I would appreciate hearing from someone with an M.L.B. Umpire manual

Remember that a delay of game is a balk.

You may be able to call a balk here and give delay of game as a reason. You must have a logical answer for a coach and a partner and yourself.

[Replacematt]

Stupid answer. You want to piss a coach off, give him a vague explanation like yours. Coaches need a logical answer. The Jaska/ Roder interpretation of the Official Rule Book was written because the official book is written in an extremely poor fashion. Page 142 of the 13th edition of Jaska/Roder was published in 2010

It reads as follows: it is a balk if a pitcher steps to first base and throws to a first baseman who, because of his distance from the base is (or would have been) unable to try a tag against the runner at first base. In my opinion Jaska/Roder is talking about an in contact pitcher here. They use the phrase," steps to first". They probably would not use this phrase if they were talking about a pitcher who was not in contact with the rubber since a pitcher off the rubber does not need to step toward a base to throw to the base.

It is unclear if a pitcher off the rubber can throw to a 1st baseman off the bag.

To say that it is legal because it is not illegal is a simplistic answer that does not satisfy me or any coach I ever met. I would appreciate hearing from someone with an M.L.B. Umpire manual

Remember that a delay of game is a balk.

You may be able to call a balk here and give delay of game as a reason. You must have a logical answer for a coach and a partner and yourself.

 

I'm going to be blunt with you. You need to stop talking and start listening. You are looking for an excuse to make an action illegal. It isn't. The rule book isn't written that way. 

 

Find in the rulebook where it says base coaches can give signs to batters.

Find in the rulebook where it says runners can assist each other.

Find in the rulebook where it says catchers can wear shinguards.

 

These are all legal things that you will not find.

 

Also, delaying the game by throwing to a fielder is not a balk in and of itself.

 

As for game management, I will stack mine against yours any day of the week. I've got the schedule to back it up. Let me conclude with this thought: if you call a balk on this, and DC comes out, what are you going to tell him?

[Sayhey]

People on this site make sweeping statements with great certainty. Of course he is not required to throw to first, but when he does choose to throw to 1st base I am not convinced that he is free to throw to a 1st baseman off the bag by 15-20 feet. I have delay of game and a balk.

In my opinion the pitcher can not play catch with the 1st baseman.

[Replacematt]

People on this site make sweeping statements with great certainty. Of course he is not required to throw to first, but when he does choose to throw to 1st base I am not convinced that he is free to throw to a 1st baseman off the bag by 15-20 feet. I have delay of game and a balk.

In my opinion the pitcher can not play catch with the 1st baseman.

 

There are no sweeping statements, just specific ones which, of course, have great certainty--we know what the proper ruling is. You don't, otherwise you wouldn't be asking.

 

So, if he throws to first, what justification do you have to call a balk? Rule cite, please.

[Sayhey]

The case play that Jaska/Roder gives (#12 on pg. 147) is a pickoff from an in contact pitcher.

There is no case play offered from a pitcher who has stepped off.

Jaska/Roder suggests a warning on the first delay of game. Infraction #2 is a balk and an ejection.

[Replacematt]

The case play that Jaska/Roder gives (#12 on pg. 147) is a pickoff from an in contact pitcher.

There is no case play offered from a pitcher who has stepped off.

Jaska/Roder suggests a warning on the first delay of game. Infraction #2 is a balk and an ejection.

 

How do they define delay of game?

[Sayhey]

Well let's all be blunt. You sound arrogant to me

You have never worked a game with me and you are certain that you have better game management skills than me. That sounds like a sweeping statement to me based upon zero facts

My rule citation to the coach is 8.02c and 8.05h-comment. You do not even have game management on a web site. I imaging your game management on the diamond is just as poor

Certainly, telling a coach that it "is legal because it is not illegal", is never going to work. You will only incite the coach. I got on this site to get an answer to a rule question. This scenario happened tonight. I had the pitcher on the rubber

My partner had him off the rubber. We both knew it was a balk with the pitcher on the rubber.

As a crew, we were unsure if it was a balk with a pitcher stepping off. I am still unsure. We went with delay of game and awarded R-1 90 feet.

Feel free to not respond to any of my future posts

I was listening to you, I just was not convinced that you are correct. You sound very sure of yourself and your "bluntness" is not appreciated or respected.

[CricketChapman]

In response to all of this:

First, J/R is probably the least persuasive secondary source available.

Second, let me try a different approach:  Why is the play described in OP a balk?  Which Rule in Chapter 8 of OBR was violated?

[Replacematt]

Well let's all be blunt. You sound arrogant to me

You have never worked a game with me and you are certain that you have better game management skills than me. That sounds like a sweeping statement to me based upon zero facts

My rule citation to the coach is 8.02c and 8.05h-comment. You do not even have game management on a web site. I imaging your game management on the diamond is just as poor

Certainly, telling a coach that it "is legal because it is not illegal", is never going to work. You will only incite the coach. I got on this site to get an answer to a rule question. This scenario happened tonight. I had the pitcher on the rubber

My partner had him off the rubber. We both knew it was a balk with the pitcher on the rubber.

As a crew, we were unsure if it was a balk with a pitcher stepping off. I am still unsure. We went with delay of game and awarded R-1 90 feet.

Feel free to not respond to any of my future posts

I was listening to you, I just was not convinced that you are correct. You sound very sure of yourself and your "bluntness" is not appreciated or respected.

 

If you don't like bluntness, tough. Pay attention to what people say the first time and don't play games. I gave you an answer and you decided that you were going to ignore what I said and just keep your head in the sand. You got the answer, you just are stuck in this false idea that this is a balk and that you will not accept anything else. If you were serious about getting an answer, you would have answered the questions I've asked of you, so that you can get an idea of the balk concept. However, just like the rest of what I said, you ignored them.

 

What you show here and what you have said you have done have given me an idea of where you fall in game management. Claiming that one has to explain why a move is legal to a coach is a sign of not knowing one's role as an umpire. It shows that you don't have much experience in dealing with these situations. It's a very asinine statement, in fact, and I don't wish for new umpires to think that is the approach to take.

[CricketChapman]

My rule citation to the coach is 8.02c and 8.05h-comment.

2014 OBR

8.02©

The pitcher shall not...Intentionally delay the game by throwing the ball to players other than the catcher, when the batter is in position, except in an attempt to retire a runner.

PENALTY: If, after warning by the umpire, such delaying action is repeated, the

pitcher shall be removed from the game.

8.05(h)

If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when...The pitcher unnecessarily delays the game.

 

Rule 8.05(h) Comment: Rule 8.05(h) shall not apply when a warning is given pursuant to Rule 8.02© (which prohibits intentional delay of a game by throwing to fielders not in an attempt to put a runner out). If a pitcher is ejected pursuant to Rule 8.02© for continuing to delay the game, the penalty in Rule 8.05(h) shall also apply. Rule 8.04 (which sets a time limit for a pitcher to deliver the ball when the bases are unoccupied) applies only when there are no runners on base.

If those are the two rules you cite in support of your ruling, then you were incorrect in your application of those rules.  A warning should have been given for delaying the game (per 8.02©), and no balk should have been called (per 8.05(h) Comment).

[Replacematt]

If those are the two rules you cite in support of your ruling, then you were incorrect in your application of those rules.  A warning should have been given for delaying the game (per 8.02©), and no balk should have been called (per 8.05(h) Comment).

 

Not only is the application incorrect, the rules themselves are not relevant. For an act to be illegal under those rules, the purpose has to be delaying the game. Otherwise, any time a pitcher did his "bad" move with no intent of getting the runner, it would be illegal.

[CricketChapman]

 

If those are the two rules you cite in support of your ruling, then you were incorrect in your application of those rules.  A warning should have been given for delaying the game (per 8.02©), and no balk should have been called (per 8.05(h) Comment).

 

Not only is the application incorrect, the rules themselves are not relevant. For an act to be illegal under those rules, the purpose has to be delaying the game. Otherwise, any time a pitcher did his "bad" move with no intent of getting the runner, it would be illegal.

 

I concur 100%.  Just wanted to take an alternative approach.

[Thunderheads]

Sayhey, 

 

Don't come on here looking for advice, ...YOU GET IT, and then you argue it (ESPECIALLY WHEN IT'S CORRECT)

 

When a pitcher steps off, ...he can do whatever the hell he wants ....because at that point, he's an infielder!

 

Jeeeeez