Weirdest "Rule"

April 25, 2014

What's the weirdest "rule" you ever had a coach tell you is a real rule that they obviously made up or heard when they were playing in their backyard but thinks is real?

Rich Ives · May 28, 2014

If one perseves a "tie" it is actually and scientifically an out.

BS

All calls are based on what you perceive. So if you perceive a tie it is a tie, and the call is "safe" as the tag has to happen before the runner touched the base.

SoCal Lurker · May 28, 2014

If one perseves a "tie" it is actually and scientifically an out. An umpire looks at the feet hitting the bag and listens for the ball hitting the glove. Light tavels 299,792,458 m/s while sound travels 340 m/s. So if our senses preseve the play as a tie the sound and the visual hit us at the same time. That means the sound had to happen LONG before the visual happened in order for them both to reach the umpire at the same time.

Cute, but if you are 10' away from the play (about 3 meters), it's a .01 second sound delay. Human perception can't track that smidgen anyway. (Now, if you're behind the plate (about 30 meters away) then you're at a tenth of a second and this starts to get interesting. And if you're in the stands, say 68 meters away to make the math simple, you're up to two-tenths of a second, which will definitely skew perception -- but I somehow doubt it skews it more than which team your kid is on does . . . . :wave:

BigUmpire · May 28, 2014

TIE=OUT Simple!

stevis · May 28, 2014

If one perseves a "tie" it is actually and scientifically an out. An umpire looks at the feet hitting the bag and listens for the ball hitting the glove. Light tavels 299,792,458 m/s while sound travels 340 m/s. So if our senses preseve the play as a tie the sound and the visual hit us at the same time. That means the sound had to happen LONG before the visual happened in order for them both to reach the umpire at the same time.

Well if you're going to invoke the speed of light, we have to start to get into Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity, and point out that simultinaeity (i.e. a tie) is an illusion of the reference frame one happens to be in--a stationary and moving observer will perceive the time of the events (see feet & hear ball) differently. So the coaches' tie is my clear out.

Someday I'm going whip that out on a coach just to see his eyes glaze over.

cyclonehokiece · May 28, 2014

If one perseves a "tie" it is actually and scientifically an out. An umpire looks at the feet hitting the bag and listens for the ball hitting the glove. Light tavels 299,792,458 m/s while sound travels 340 m/s. So if our senses preseve the play as a tie the sound and the visual hit us at the same time. That means the sound had to happen LONG before the visual happened in order for them both to reach the umpire at the same time.
Well if you're going to invoke the speed of light, we have to start to get into Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity, and point out that simultinaeity (i.e. a tie) is an illusion of the reference frame one happens to be in--a stationary and moving observer will perceive the time of the events (see feet & hear ball) differently. So the coaches' tie is my clear out.
Someday I'm going whip that out on a coach just to see his eyes glaze over.

Alright, it is time for the professional, Dr. Ump (aka @JHSump ) to settle this.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

SoCal Lurker · May 28, 2014

TIE=OUT Simple!

100% wrong by rule, but in fact how many seem to actually make the call . . . but here in the real world, an actual tie is so remotely rare it is amazing that so much time is spent arguing about it. (Perhaps because offensive coaches want a close play to be the equivalent of a tie and therefore safe . . . .)

BigUmpire · May 28, 2014

OK- Time to bring out the big guns on this one!

In the REAL world of umpiredom/survival/getting home/beer thirty these bumper stickers apply:

â€œNever pass up an opportunity to get an outâ€.- Umpire in Chief
â€œThe more strikes and outs you call the closer you are to Miller Timeâ€.-Bigumpire
"Strikes and outs will get you home."-plateumpire
â€œWhen in doubt, itâ€™s an outâ€ â€“Bigumpire
Tie goes to the umpire, and I always get an out."-James Walker

JHSump · May 29, 2014

If one perseves a "tie" it is actually and scientifically an out. An umpire looks at the feet hitting the bag and listens for the ball hitting the glove. Light tavels 299,792,458 m/s while sound travels 340 m/s. So if our senses preseve the play as a tie the sound and the visual hit us at the same time. That means the sound had to happen LONG before the visual happened in order for them both to reach the umpire at the same time.

Well if you're going to invoke the speed of light, we have to start to get into Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity, and point out that simultinaeity (i.e. a tie) is an illusion of the reference frame one happens to be in--a stationary and moving observer will perceive the time of the events (see feet & hear ball) differently. So the coaches' tie is my clear out.
Someday I'm going whip that out on a coach just to see his eyes glaze over.

Alright, it is time for the professional, Dr. Ump (aka @JHSump ) to settle this.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

LOL

I will take the challenge @cyclonehokiece

Technically, the coach and the umpire are in the same frame of reference since neither is moving with respect to each other --- assuming you are set for the call and he is standing still. So, sorry @stevis, but relativity does not come into play.

And, while it's true that light travels much much faster than sound, at a distance of about 10-20 feet from the base, the difference in time of arrival of the sound and the light at the umpire is about the sound travel time: about 3 to 7 meters divided by 344 m/s, or at most about 0.02 seconds.

That's the physics.

I don't know too much about physiology and neurobiology, but my guess is no human can distinguish such a difference in arrival time. Anybody know?

So, if you perceive a tie, it could be that the foot hit the bag before the ball hit the glove. Or, it could be the other way around. But you can't rely on physics to help you figure it out.

What should you call a perceived tie? IMO, that's not a question for physics or physiology. It's a question for UE!

BigUmpire · May 29, 2014

If one perseves a "tie" it is actually and scientifically an out. An umpire looks at the feet hitting the bag and listens for the ball hitting the glove. Light tavels 299,792,458 m/s while sound travels 340 m/s. So if our senses preseve the play as a tie the sound and the visual hit us at the same time. That means the sound had to happen LONG before the visual happened in order for them both to reach the umpire at the same time.

Well if you're going to invoke the speed of light, we have to start to get into Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity, and point out that simultinaeity (i.e. a tie) is an illusion of the reference frame one happens to be in--a stationary and moving observer will perceive the time of the events (see feet & hear ball) differently. So the coaches' tie is my clear out.
Someday I'm going whip that out on a coach just to see his eyes glaze over.

Alright, it is time for the professional, Dr. Ump (aka @JHSump ) to settle this.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

LOL

I will take the challenge @cyclonehokiece

Technically, the coach and the umpire are in the same frame of reference since neither is moving with respect to each other --- assuming you are set for the call and he is standing still. So, sorry @stevis, but relativity does not come into play.

And, while it's true that light travels much much faster than sound, at a distance of about 10-20 feet from the base, the difference in time of arrival of the sound and the light at the umpire is about the sound travel time: about 3 to 7 meters divided by 344 m/s, or at most about 0.02 seconds.

That's the physics.

I don't know too much about physiology and neurobiology, but my guess is no human can distinguish such a difference in arrival time. Anybody know?

So, if you perceive a tie, it could be that the foot hit the bag before the ball hit the glove. Or, it could be the other way around. But you can't rely on physics to help you figure it out.

What should you call a perceived tie? IMO, that's not a question for physics or physiology. It's a question for UE!

Answered in post #s 54 and 58

stevis · May 29, 2014

If one perseves a "tie" it is actually and scientifically an out. An umpire looks at the feet hitting the bag and listens for the ball hitting the glove. Light tavels 299,792,458 m/s while sound travels 340 m/s. So if our senses preseve the play as a tie the sound and the visual hit us at the same time. That means the sound had to happen LONG before the visual happened in order for them both to reach the umpire at the same time.

Well if you're going to invoke the speed of light, we have to start to get into Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity, and point out that simultinaeity (i.e. a tie) is an illusion of the reference frame one happens to be in--a stationary and moving observer will perceive the time of the events (see feet & hear ball) differently. So the coaches' tie is my clear out.
Someday I'm going whip that out on a coach just to see his eyes glaze over.

Alright, it is time for the professional, Dr. Ump (aka @JHSump ) to settle this.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

LOL

I will take the challenge @cyclonehokiece

Technically, the coach and the umpire are in the same frame of reference since neither is moving with respect to each other --- assuming you are set for the call and he is standing still. So, sorry @stevis, but relativity does not come into play.

And, while it's true that light travels much much faster than sound, at a distance of about 10-20 feet from the base, the difference in time of arrival of the sound and the light at the umpire is about the sound travel time: about 3 to 7 meters divided by 344 m/s, or at most about 0.02 seconds.

That's the physics.

I don't know too much about physiology and neurobiology, but my guess is no human can distinguish such a difference in arrival time. Anybody know?

So, if you perceive a tie, it could be that the foot hit the bag before the ball hit the glove. Or, it could be the other way around. But you can't rely on physics to help you figure it out.

What should you call a perceived tie? IMO, that's not a question for physics or physiology. It's a question for UE!

(You mean to tell me I'm not the only Ph.D. physicist here? Guess I should check that "day job" thread.)

I'm sorry, when have you ever seen a coach standing still? Especially at a close call? We umpires however are perfectly set, natch.

Although of course we're all on the non-inertial reference frame known as Earth so it's all an approximation anyway.

According to this wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interaural_time_difference) the brain can distinguish sub-millisecond sound arrival time differences between the ears. Not sure if that applies to comparing visual and aural inputs though.

maxpower74 · May 29, 2014

The power of the brain is awesome. ....at the very minimum, it is such a joy to see the coaches face when you whip out the speed of light vs the speed of sound and it makes for some good laughs at beer-thirty

ALStripes17 · May 29, 2014

The power of the brain is awesome. ....at the very minimum, it is such a joy to see the coaches face when you whip out the speed of light vs the speed of sound and it makes for some good laughs at beer-thirty

My PhD is in "beer-thirty-onomics."

Rich Ives · May 29, 2014

TIE=OUT Simple!

Nope.

If tie then safe.

Tag has to happen BEFORE the runner touches the base for it to be an out.

BigUmpire · May 29, 2014

There are NO ties or crying in baseball!

DVA7130 · May 29, 2014

TIE=OUT Simple!

Nope.

If tie then safe.

Tag has to happen BEFORE the runner touches the base for it to be an out.

:shakehead:

:no: :no: :no: :no: :no:

I mean seriously. Are YOU who keeps telling coaches this?!

BigUmpire · May 29, 2014

By rule Rich is correct BUT it sures tastes like vinegar for me to say this!

BUT if you were calling with me AND you called "safe" on what you believed was a tie AND you were stupid enough to tell me that you would go home UNHAPPY bucko!

BUT being a good Georgia boy YOU WOULD NOT DO THIS!

Rich Ives · May 29, 2014

So you advocate calling it incorrectly on purpose?

Rich Ives · May 29, 2014

For all to read:

A tie DOES go to the runner at first base and for force plays. The only possible umpiring issue is whether or not a tie is possible. Trying to redefine the meaning of â€œbeforeâ€ sometimes enters the discussion too.

6.05 A batter is out whenâ€”

(j) After a third strike or after he hits a fair ball, he or first base is tagged before he touches first base;

Same here:

7.08 Any runner is out whenâ€”

(e) He or the next base is tagged before he touches the next base, after he has been forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

So if it's a tie, he or the base was not tagged before he touched the base so he's safe.

As you can see, a tie DOES go to the runner BY RULE!

People are so locked into their perception that the phrase is a myth that they canâ€™t accept what is in black and white in the rule book.

scrounge · May 29, 2014

For all to read:
A tie DOES go to the runner at first base and for force plays. The only possible umpiring issue is whether or not a tie is possible. Trying to redefine the meaning of â€œbeforeâ€ sometimes enters the discussion too.
6.05 A batter is out whenâ€”
(j) After a third strike or after he hits a fair ball, he or first base is tagged before he touches first base;
Same here:
7.08 Any runner is out whenâ€”
(e) He or the next base is tagged before he touches the next base, after he has been forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner.
So if it's a tie, he or the base was not tagged before he touched the base so he's safe.
As you can see, a tie DOES go to the runner BY RULE!
People are so locked into their perception that the phrase is a myth that they canâ€™t accept what is in black and white in the rule book.

OR, they're predominantly doing FED games where the runner DOES have to beat the throw...

8-4-2j. fails to reach the next base before a fielder either tags the runner out or holds the ball while touching such base, after runner has been forced from the base he occupied because the batter became a runner (with ball in play) when other runners were on first base, or on first and second, or on first, second and third. There shall be no accidental appeals on a force play.

For all to read:
A tie DOES go to the runner at first base and for force plays. The only possible umpiring issue is whether or not a tie is possible. Trying to redefine the meaning of â€œbeforeâ€ sometimes enters the discussion too.
6.05 A batter is out whenâ€”
(j) After a third strike or after he hits a fair ball, he or first base is tagged before he touches first base;
Same here:
7.08 Any runner is out whenâ€”
(e) He or the next base is tagged before he touches the next base, after he has been forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner.
So if it's a tie, he or the base was not tagged before he touched the base so he's safe.
As you can see, a tie DOES go to the runner BY RULE!
People are so locked into their perception that the phrase is a myth that they canâ€™t accept what is in black and white in the rule book.

OR, they're predominantly doing FED games where the runner DOES have to beat the throw...

8-4-2j. fails to reach the next base before a fielder either tags the runner out or holds the ball while touching such base, after runner has been forced from the base he occupied because the batter became a runner (with ball in play) when other runners were on first base, or on first and second, or on first, second and third. There shall be no accidental appeals on a force play.

JHSump · May 29, 2014

If one perseves a "tie" it is actually and scientifically an out. An umpire looks at the feet hitting the bag and listens for the ball hitting the glove. Light tavels 299,792,458 m/s while sound travels 340 m/s. So if our senses preseve the play as a tie the sound and the visual hit us at the same time. That means the sound had to happen LONG before the visual happened in order for them both to reach the umpire at the same time.

Well if you're going to invoke the speed of light, we have to start to get into Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity, and point out that simultinaeity (i.e. a tie) is an illusion of the reference frame one happens to be in--a stationary and moving observer will perceive the time of the events (see feet & hear ball) differently. So the coaches' tie is my clear out.
Someday I'm going whip that out on a coach just to see his eyes glaze over.

Alright, it is time for the professional, Dr. Ump (aka @JHSump ) to settle this.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

LOL

I will take the challenge @cyclonehokiece

Technically, the coach and the umpire are in the same frame of reference since neither is moving with respect to each other --- assuming you are set for the call and he is standing still. So, sorry @stevis, but relativity does not come into play.

And, while it's true that light travels much much faster than sound, at a distance of about 10-20 feet from the base, the difference in time of arrival of the sound and the light at the umpire is about the sound travel time: about 3 to 7 meters divided by 344 m/s, or at most about 0.02 seconds.

That's the physics.

I don't know too much about physiology and neurobiology, but my guess is no human can distinguish such a difference in arrival time. Anybody know?

So, if you perceive a tie, it could be that the foot hit the bag before the ball hit the glove. Or, it could be the other way around. But you can't rely on physics to help you figure it out.

What should you call a perceived tie? IMO, that's not a question for physics or physiology. It's a question for UE!

(You mean to tell me I'm not the only Ph.D. physicist here? Guess I should check that "day job" thread.)

I'm sorry, when have you ever seen a coach standing still? Especially at a close call? We umpires however are perfectly set, natch.

Although of course we're all on the non-inertial reference frame known as Earth so it's all an approximation anyway.

According to this wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interaural_time_difference) the brain can distinguish sub-millisecond sound arrival time differences between the ears. Not sure if that applies to comparing visual and aural inputs though.

Cool!

We need to work a game together

I will have to look at that wiki article.

BigUmpire · May 30, 2014

So you advocate calling it incorrectly on purpose?

YES.

maxpower74 · May 30, 2014

6.05 A batter is out whenâ€”
(j) After a third strike or after he hits a fair ball, he or first base is tagged before he touches first base;

This is a true statement....... and physics syas that if the umpire perseves a "tie" then the ball actually got there before the runner.

THEREFORE ..... TIE = OUT

HokieUmp · May 31, 2014

For all to read:

A tie DOES go to the runner at first base and for force plays. The only possible umpiring issue is whether or not a tie is possible.

Right, so here's how I do it.....

Ties are not possible.

Therefore, they do not occur, giving them to neither side.

As it does not exist, your argument - valid or invalid, I care not - is moot, and vanishes in a puff of smoke.

If you continue to contest that on a field of play, in a prolonged, personal, or profane manner, YOU vanish in a puff of smoke.

QED.

cyclonehokiece · June 1, 2014

For all to read:
A tie DOES go to the runner at first base and for force plays. The only possible umpiring issue is whether or not a tie is possible.
Right, so here's how I do it.....
Ties are not possible.
Therefore, they do not occur, giving them to neither side.
As it does not exist, your argument - valid or invalid, I care not - is moot, and vanishes in a puff of smoke.
If you continue to contest that on a field of play, in a prolonged, personal, or profane manner, YOU vanish in a puff of smoke.
QED.

Can you teach us that ej mechanic to get dismissed persons to go *poof* with smoke and all :lol:

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

June 1, 2014

75 posts, and you all fail.

Little Leagues rule 7.13 (leaving early) trumps any made up local rule, and dopey FED rule, and any other rule in organized ball. It's not even close.

Where else do you drop a flag, make runner go poof, pull three runners off the bench AND have to unscrew the manager out of the dugout ceiling?

Please, spare those other attempts.

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