Base Award Disagreement

[mrumpiresir]

I have the plate in a JV game. R3 and the count is 0-2.  Pitch in the dirt is swung at and gets away from the catcher and is rolling toward the opening in the dugout fence. BR is heading to first where he will easily be safe. Ball rolls into dugout and I kill the play and award R3 home.  When I look for the BR, I see he is trotting to second.

 

Now I'm sure i read on this board that base awards are not cumulative so I told him to return to first. 

 

What I didn't know was that my partner told him to go to second.  So we had a brief discussion.  He says the runner has first on beating out the uncaught third strike, and he gets second on the ball going out of play.  I tell him he gets 1 base on the dead ball from the TOP, and you can't "add" the awards together.  He disagrees but allows my call to stand.  It was an amicable discussion.  During our post game discussion we agreed to disagree but we would research it.

 

I couldn't fin anything specific in the rule book.

 

What do you guys think?

 

Does anyone have an ruling on this by some credible authority?

 

 

[UmpJM]

mrumpiresir,

 

You were correct and your partner was mistaken.

 

You might try the second line in the FED base awards table, which clearly specifies it is one base from TOP.

 

You will not find an explicit statement in the book that says "base awards are not cumulative, but it is true nonetheless.

 

JM

[VAUmp]

You were correct.  

[JaxRolo]

Good job

[maven]

You will not find an explicit statement in the book that says "base awards are not cumulative, but it is true nonetheless.

 

While true, this principle does not apply to the OP. The BR reached 1B on a third strike not legally caught, which is not an award.

[Rich Ives]

7.05(i )

[Jimurray]

I have the plate in a JV game. R3 and the count is 0-2.  Pitch in the dirt is swung at and gets away from the catcher and is rolling toward the opening in the dugout fence. BR is heading to first where he will easily be safe. Ball rolls into dugout and I kill the play and award R3 home.  When I look for the BR, I see he is trotting to second.

 

Now I'm sure i read on this board that base awards are not cumulative so I told him to return to first. 

 

What I didn't know was that my partner told him to go to second.  So we had a brief discussion.  He says the runner has first on beating out the uncaught third strike, and he gets second on the ball going out of play.  I tell him he gets 1 base on the dead ball from the TOP, and you can't "add" the awards together.  He disagrees but allows my call to stand.  It was an amicable discussion.  During our post game discussion we agreed to disagree but we would research it.

 

I couldn't fin anything specific in the rule book.

 

What do you guys think?

 

Does anyone have an ruling on this by some credible authority?

Just to keep the website equitable and to back up Noumpire on another thread, why would you even ask this question? Ok, JV you get a break. But who is training you?

[mrumpiresir]

 

You will not find an explicit statement in the book that says "base awards are not cumulative, but it is true nonetheless.

 

While true, this principle does not apply to the OP. The BR reached 1B on a third strike not legally caught, which is not an award.

 

That's true but we also disagreed on a scenario where the batter received a base on balls and the pitch subsequently went into dead ball territory. I should have brought this up in the OP.

[mrumpiresir]

 

I have the plate in a JV game. R3 and the count is 0-2.  Pitch in the dirt is swung at and gets away from the catcher and is rolling toward the opening in the dugout fence. BR is heading to first where he will easily be safe. Ball rolls into dugout and I kill the play and award R3 home.  When I look for the BR, I see he is trotting to second.

 

Now I'm sure i read on this board that base awards are not cumulative so I told him to return to first. 

 

What I didn't know was that my partner told him to go to second.  So we had a brief discussion.  He says the runner has first on beating out the uncaught third strike, and he gets second on the ball going out of play.  I tell him he gets 1 base on the dead ball from the TOP, and you can't "add" the awards together.  He disagrees but allows my call to stand.  It was an amicable discussion.  During our post game discussion we agreed to disagree but we would research it.

 

I couldn't fin anything specific in the rule book.

 

What do you guys think?

 

Does anyone have an ruling on this by some credible authority?

Just to keep the website equitable and to back up Noumpire on another thread, why would you even ask this question? Ok, JV you get a break. But who is training you?

 

I asked this question because my partner and I disagreed and nowhere in any rule book could I find anything that specifically addresses this situation.  I ruled correctly because I follow these forums.  I really don't understand why you would ask who trained me.  I don't need your condescending attitude.

[maven]

 

 

You will not find an explicit statement in the book that says "base awards are not cumulative, but it is true nonetheless.

 

While true, this principle does not apply to the OP. The BR reached 1B on a third strike not legally caught, which is not an award.

 

That's true but we also disagreed on a scenario where the batter received a base on balls and the pitch subsequently went into dead ball territory. I should have brought this up in the OP.

 

 

Ah, well that would be 2 awards.

 

I guess I'd tell the coach: "Both awards are 1 base from the TOP, so all you get is 1 base from the TOP. If you added them, you'd get 2 bases from the TOP, and neither infraction (and no rule) warrants such an award."

[MidAmUmp]

I have the plate in a JV game. R3 and the count is 0-2. Pitch in the dirt is swung at and gets away from the catcher and is rolling toward the opening in the dugout fence. BR is heading to first where he will easily be safe. Ball rolls into dugout and I kill the play and award R3 home. When I look for the BR, I see he is trotting to second.

Now I'm sure i read on this board that base awards are not cumulative so I told him to return to first.

What I didn't know was that my partner told him to go to second. So we had a brief discussion. He says the runner has first on beating out the uncaught third strike, and he gets second on the ball going out of play. I tell him he gets 1 base on the dead ball from the TOP, and you can't "add" the awards together. He disagrees but allows my call to stand. It was an amicable discussion. During our post game discussion we agreed to disagree but we would research it.

I couldn't fin anything specific in the rule book.

What do you guys think?

Does anyone have an ruling on this by some credible authority?

When umpires disagree on a base award, this falls under 9.01c in the rule book and the umpires should have a dance off to settle the dispute.

[goody14]

 

I have the plate in a JV game. R3 and the count is 0-2. Pitch in the dirt is swung at and gets away from the catcher and is rolling toward the opening in the dugout fence. BR is heading to first where he will easily be safe. Ball rolls into dugout and I kill the play and award R3 home. When I look for the BR, I see he is trotting to second.

Now I'm sure i read on this board that base awards are not cumulative so I told him to return to first.

What I didn't know was that my partner told him to go to second. So we had a brief discussion. He says the runner has first on beating out the uncaught third strike, and he gets second on the ball going out of play. I tell him he gets 1 base on the dead ball from the TOP, and you can't "add" the awards together. He disagrees but allows my call to stand. It was an amicable discussion. During our post game discussion we agreed to disagree but we would research it.

I couldn't fin anything specific in the rule book.

What do you guys think?

Does anyone have an ruling on this by some credible authority?

When umpires disagree on a base award, this falls under 9.01c in the rule book and the umpires should have a dance off to settle the dispute.

 

Only if players surround them in a half circle snapping their fingers during said dancing...

[Lala]

I have the plate in a JV game. R3 and the count is 0-2. Pitch in the dirt is swung at and gets away from the catcher and is rolling toward the opening in the dugout fence. BR is heading to first where he will easily be safe. Ball rolls into dugout and I kill the play and award R3 home. When I look for the BR, I see he is trotting to second.

Now I'm sure i read on this board that base awards are not cumulative so I told him to return to first.

What I didn't know was that my partner told him to go to second. So we had a brief discussion. He says the runner has first on beating out the uncaught third strike, and he gets second on the ball going out of play. I tell him he gets 1 base on the dead ball from the TOP, and you can't "add" the awards together. He disagrees but allows my call to stand. It was an amicable discussion. During our post game discussion we agreed to disagree but we would research it.

I couldn't fin anything specific in the rule book.

What do you guys think?

Does anyone have an ruling on this by some credible authority?

When umpires disagree on a base award, this falls under 9.01c in the rule book and the umpires should have a dance off to settle the dispute.

Only if players surround them in a half circle snapping their fingers during said dancing...

What happens if they do the wrong dance, make it rain, and the game is suspended/canceled?

[noumpere]

 

What happens if they do the wrong dance, make it rain, and the game is suspended/canceled?

 

 

That's a good thing because they can then get the right answer and enforce it correctly when the game resumes.

[Kevin_K]

 

What happens if they do the wrong dance, make it rain, and the game is suspended/canceled?

 

 

As long as the game started you get paid. Seems to me that would be a good thing, especially in a JV game.

[VolUmp]

K

[VolUmp]

 

Ah, well that would be 2 awards.

 

I guess I'd tell the coach: "Both awards are 1 base from the TOP, so all you get is 1 base from the TOP. If you added them, you'd get 2 bases from the TOP, and neither infraction (and no rule) warrants such an award."

 

 

Like when you are convicted of two counts of murder and the judge slaps you with two 99-year sentences ... served "CONCURRENTLY."

99 + 99 = 99

[VolUmp]

 

Just to keep the website equitable and to back up Noumpire on another thread, why would you even ask this question? Ok, JV you get a break. But who is training you?

 

I asked this question because my partner and I disagreed and nowhere in any rule book could I find anything that specifically addresses this situation.  I ruled correctly because I follow these forums.  I really don't understand why you would ask who trained me.  I don't need your condescending attitude.

 

 

MrUmpireSir:

NO ONE ... and I mean NO ONE is impressed with BS questions like that from Jimurray.

It's Napolean Syndrome.  Let him fester all by himself at Waterloo.

[Thunderheads]

 

 

Just to keep the website equitable and to back up Noumpire on another thread, why would you even ask this question? Ok, JV you get a break. But who is training you?

 

I asked this question because my partner and I disagreed and nowhere in any rule book could I find anything that specifically addresses this situation.  I ruled correctly because I follow these forums.  I really don't understand why you would ask who trained me.  I don't need your condescending attitude.

 

 

MrUmpireSir:

NO ONE ... and I mean NO ONE is impressed with BS questions like that from Jimurray.

It's Napolean Syndrome.  Let him fester all by himself at Waterloo.

 

OK guys, back on topic please, thanks ...........

[Jimurray]

 

 

You will not find an explicit statement in the book that says "base awards are not cumulative, but it is true nonetheless.

 

While true, this principle does not apply to the OP. The BR reached 1B on a third strike not legally caught, which is not an award.

 

That's true but we also disagreed on a scenario where the batter received a base on balls and the pitch subsequently went into dead ball territory. I should have brought this up in the OP.

 

 

UmpJM gave you the rulebook reference for your OP. For the reference to the above OP you look in the same table in 8.2.9 and under the batter you will find #2:

 

NO. BASES AWARDED DETERMINED FROM BASE OCCUPIED AT TIME OF: ONE BASE (runners)   1. Balk 1. Infraction 2. Pitch from pitcher’s plate thrown out of play 2. Pitch 3. Throw from pitcher’s plate goes out of play 3. Throw 4. Unintentional catch and carry 4. Pitch 5. *Catcher obstruction (if attempting to advance) 5. Pitch 6. Forced (because batter is awarded 1st base) 6. Pitch 7. Pitch strikes runner 7. Pitch ONE BASE (batter)   1. Walk 1. Pitch 2. Pitch thrown out of play on ball four 2. Pitch

[blue23ll]

 

I have the plate in a JV game. R3 and the count is 0-2. Pitch in the dirt is swung at and gets away from the catcher and is rolling toward the opening in the dugout fence. BR is heading to first where he will easily be safe. Ball rolls into dugout and I kill the play and award R3 home. When I look for the BR, I see he is trotting to second.

Now I'm sure i read on this board that base awards are not cumulative so I told him to return to first.

What I didn't know was that my partner told him to go to second. So we had a brief discussion. He says the runner has first on beating out the uncaught third strike, and he gets second on the ball going out of play. I tell him he gets 1 base on the dead ball from the TOP, and you can't "add" the awards together. He disagrees but allows my call to stand. It was an amicable discussion. During our post game discussion we agreed to disagree but we would research it.

I couldn't fin anything specific in the rule book.

What do you guys think?

Does anyone have an ruling on this by some credible authority?

When umpires disagree on a base award, this falls under 9.01c in the rule book and the umpires should have a dance off to settle the dispute.

 

My favorite song for dance offs is, "Everybody Have Fun Tonight" by Wang Chung, or "Dance Fever" by the Bee Gees!!

[Lala]

I have the plate in a JV game. R3 and the count is 0-2. Pitch in the dirt is swung at and gets away from the catcher and is rolling toward the opening in the dugout fence. BR is heading to first where he will easily be safe. Ball rolls into dugout and I kill the play and award R3 home. When I look for the BR, I see he is trotting to second.

Now I'm sure i read on this board that base awards are not cumulative so I told him to return to first.

What I didn't know was that my partner told him to go to second. So we had a brief discussion. He says the runner has first on beating out the uncaught third strike, and he gets second on the ball going out of play. I tell him he gets 1 base on the dead ball from the TOP, and you can't "add" the awards together. He disagrees but allows my call to stand. It was an amicable discussion. During our post game discussion we agreed to disagree but we would research it.

I couldn't fin anything specific in the rule book.

What do you guys think?

Does anyone have an ruling on this by some credible authority?

When umpires disagree on a base award, this falls under 9.01c in the rule book and the umpires should have a dance off to settle the dispute.

My favorite song for dance offs is, "Everybody Have Fun Tonight" by Wang Chung, or "Dance Fever" by the Bee Gees!!

I will throw out 'Working for the Weekend' by Loverboy and the dance would be something like Patrick Swayze and Chris Farley do for Chippendales.

[mrumpiresir]

 

 

 

You will not find an explicit statement in the book that says "base awards are not cumulative, but it is true nonetheless.

 

While true, this principle does not apply to the OP. The BR reached 1B on a third strike not legally caught, which is not an award.

 

That's true but we also disagreed on a scenario where the batter received a base on balls and the pitch subsequently went into dead ball territory. I should have brought this up in the OP.

 

 

UmpJM gave you the rulebook reference for your OP. For the reference to the above OP you look in the same table in 8.2.9 and under the batter you will find #2:

 

NO. BASES AWARDED DETERMINED FROM BASE OCCUPIED AT TIME OF: ONE BASE (runners)   1. Balk 1. Infraction 2. Pitch from pitcher’s plate thrown out of play 2. Pitch 3. Throw from pitcher’s plate goes out of play 3. Throw 4. Unintentional catch and carry 4. Pitch 5. *Catcher obstruction (if attempting to advance) 5. Pitch 6. Forced (because batter is awarded 1st base) 6. Pitch 7. Pitch strikes runner 7. Pitch ONE BASE (batter)   1. Walk 1. Pitch 2. Pitch thrown out of play on ball four 2. Pitch

 

I understand the award is one base.  I ruled that as I said in the OP. I simply wondered if a specific reference stating that base awards are not added together which is what my partner wanted to do.  I thought UmpJM answered appropriately.

 

PS  I'm working lower level games because I have medical conditions which limit my mobility.  After 24 years of umpiring, I am trying to cut back on the number of games I work, but the assigner won't let me.

[Jimurray]

You will not find an explicit statement in the book that says "base awards are not cumulative, but it is true nonetheless.

 

While true, this principle does not apply to the OP. The BR reached 1B on a third strike not legally caught, which is not an award.

That's true but we also disagreed on a scenario where the batter received a base on balls and the pitch subsequently went into dead ball territory. I should have brought this up in the OP.

 

UmpJM gave you the rulebook reference for your OP. For the reference to the above OP you look in the same table in 8.2.9 and under the batter you will find #2:

 

NO. BASES AWARDED DETERMINED FROM BASE OCCUPIED AT TIME OF: ONE BASE (runners)   1. Balk 1. Infraction 2. Pitch from pitcher’s plate thrown out of play 2. Pitch 3. Throw from pitcher’s plate goes out of play 3. Throw 4. Unintentional catch and carry 4. Pitch 5. *Catcher obstruction (if attempting to advance) 5. Pitch 6. Forced (because batter is awarded 1st base) 6. Pitch 7. Pitch strikes runner 7. Pitch ONE BASE (batter)   1. Walk 1. Pitch 2. Pitch thrown out of play on ball four 2. Pitch

I understand the award is one base.  I ruled that as I said in the OP. I simply wondered if a specific reference stating that base awards are not added together which is what my partner wanted to do.  I thought UmpJM answered appropriately.

 

PS  I'm working lower level games because I have medical conditions which limit my mobility.  After 24 years of umpiring, I am trying to cut back on the number of games I work, but the assigner won't let me.

So is your partner convinced that you are correct?

[mrumpiresir]

No, Not Yet.