Balk and HBP

[Guest Dan from CA]

MLB Rules says Balk is not an automatic dead ball.

Scenario:  Base runner is on 2b, 1 out, and the pitcher balks (no stop), then the pitch hits batter. What's the outcome?

 

Possibilities:

1. Batter awarded 1B, and runner to 3B.

2. Runner to 3B, and batter continues to bat.

 

There may be more logical possibilities, but I think A is the right answer. Basically, the defense made 2 mistakes, and should be penalized for both: Balk, and Hit batter.

 

Some say the answer is B, but I disagree, unless the rules say there can only be one penalty on the defense per play (which I don't think it does.)

 

What do you guys think?

 

- Dan

[grayhawk]

Can only ignore the balk if the batter runner and all runners advance at least one base. R2 to third, no pitch. Batter stays at bat with same count. If there was R1 and R2, then the BR would force the runners and the balk would be ignored.

 

8.05 PENALTY: The ball is dead, and each runner shall advance one base without liability to be put out, unless the batter reaches first on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batter, or otherwise, and all other runners advance at least one base, in which case the play proceeds without reference to the balk.

[mjr_2013]

The balk is only ignored if EVERYONE moves up a base… Since R2 does not on the HBP, it's just a no pitch. A painful one at that.

[Replacematt]

And to stop the inevitable upcoming confusion, there is not a choice on a balk. Either the penalty is enforced, or it is ignored by the bolded part of the rule above.

[Guest Dan rom CA]

 

So, because the rule says the 'ball is dead' on the balk, this is why the batter stays at bat???

 

8.05 PENALTY: The ball is dead, and each runner shall advance one base without liability to be put out, unless the batter reaches first on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batter, or otherwise, and all other runners advance at least one base, in which case the play proceeds without reference to the balk.

 

[maven]

No. Think of it this way.

 

1. F1 balked, but play continues in this case.

2. There are now only 2 possible outcomes: all runners including the BR reach their advance base safely ("the play") or the balk is enforced at the end of playing action.

3. Since in your play, not all runners reached their advance base safely (R2 did not advance), the balk penalty is enforced.

4. Enforcement of any balk is a 1 base award to runners, no pitch to the batter, who resumes his at bat with the previous count.

 

"Time" is called after the play in order to enforce the balk penalty.

[noumpere]

 

There may be more logical possibilities, but I think A is the right answer. Basically, the defense made 2 mistakes, and should be penalized for both: Balk, and Hit batter.

 

 

What do you guys think?

 

- Dan

And if the pitcher balks and throws out of play, does the runner get two bases?

 

Or if ball four deflects off the catcher out of play, does the batter get second (one base for each infraction)?

[Guest Dan in CA]

No. Think of it this way.

 

1. F1 balked, but play continues in this case.

2. There are now only 2 possible outcomes: all runners including the BR reach their advance base safely ("the play") or the balk is enforced at the end of playing action.

3. Since in your play, not all runners reached their advance base safely (R2 did not advance), the balk penalty is enforced.

4. Enforcement of any balk is a 1 base award to runners, no pitch to the batter, who resumes his at bat with the previous count.

 

"Time" is called after the play in order to enforce the balk penalty.

Thank you...

Last question...

Can an offensive coach decide on accepting the hit batter by sending him to 1st base, and keep the R2 on 2nd base?

[grayhawk]

No. Think of it this way.

1. F1 balked, but play continues in this case.

2. There are now only 2 possible outcomes: all runners including the BR reach their advance base safely ("the play") or the balk is enforced at the end of playing action.

3. Since in your play, not all runners reached their advance base safely (R2 did not advance), the balk penalty is enforced.

4. Enforcement of any balk is a 1 base award to runners, no pitch to the batter, who resumes his at bat with the previous count.

"Time" is called after the play in order to enforce the balk penalty.

Thank you...

Last question...

Can an offensive coach decide on accepting the hit batter by sending him to 1st base, and keep the R2 on 2nd base?

No, there is no option on a balk. By rule, the umpire either enforces the balk penalty, or disregards it if the batter runner and all runners advance at least one base.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Larry in TN]

Saw a situation yesterday at a LL Junior division game.

 

Balk was called by the HP umpire due to the catcher not being in the catcher's box at the time of the pitch.  It looked like an intentional pitch-out but the batter was not being intentionally walked.  I believe that there were R2 and R3 at that time.  The umpire awarded each running their base on the balk and awarded a ball to the batter.  The batter then completed his plate appearance without receiving any additional pitch-outs.

 

Rule 8.05 (k) makes it a balk when "the pitcher, while giving an intentional base on balls, pitches when the catcher is not in the catcher's box."

 

That would seem to apply in this case except that it did not appear that the pitcher was giving an intentional base on balls.  

 

Was this a balk? If so, shouldn't the correct penalty have been runners advancing one base but with no pitch being recorded?

[maven]

The "catcher's balk" is indeed a balk, and the guy/crew you saw screwed it up twice.

 

First: don't call this in youth ball (older F2's won't do it). It's too technical. Just tell him he needs to start with his feet in the box (if there is one — if not, you REALLY shouldn't call this). If it's really blatant and someone is complaining, call time and prevent the infraction.

 

Second: the balk penalty negates the pitch, so you're right they erred in adding a ball to the count.

 

An unusual rule: it refers to the release of the pitch, rather than the time of the pitch (or when F1 is committed to pitch). And that part of the rule is seldom enforced.

 

Also: it's a misnomer. It's a balk on the pitcher, not the catcher, because the offense is pitching when F2 is not in position.

[Replacematt]

 

No. Think of it this way.

 

1. F1 balked, but play continues in this case.

2. There are now only 2 possible outcomes: all runners including the BR reach their advance base safely ("the play") or the balk is enforced at the end of playing action.

3. Since in your play, not all runners reached their advance base safely (R2 did not advance), the balk penalty is enforced.

4. Enforcement of any balk is a 1 base award to runners, no pitch to the batter, who resumes his at bat with the previous count.

 

"Time" is called after the play in order to enforce the balk penalty.

Thank you...

Last question...

Can an offensive coach decide on accepting the hit batter by sending him to 1st base, and keep the R2 on 2nd base?

 

 

Sigh...

[JonnyCat]

Saw a situation yesterday at a LL Junior division game.

 

Balk was called by the HP umpire due to the catcher not being in the catcher's box at the time of the pitch.  It looked like an intentional pitch-out but the batter was not being intentionally walked.  I believe that there were R2 and R3 at that time.  The umpire awarded each running their base on the balk and awarded a ball to the batter.  The batter then completed his plate appearance without receiving any additional pitch-outs.

 

Rule 8.05 (k) makes it a balk when "the pitcher, while giving an intentional base on balls, pitches when the catcher is not in the catcher's box."

 

That would seem to apply in this case except that it did not appear that the pitcher was giving an intentional base on balls.  

 

Was this a balk? If so, shouldn't the correct penalty have been runners advancing one base but with no pitch being recorded?

Maven is correct, the umpire messed this one up.

 

However, they may have been confused about adding a ball to the count. In LL rules, on a balk with a pitch actually thrown, a pitch is added the the pitcher's pitch count, not the count to the batter. See rule 8.05, 2014 LL rule book, page 95. Penalty for a balk.

 

Could be what happened regarding the count.

[Larry in TN]

The "catcher's balk" is indeed a balk, and the guy/crew you saw screwed it up twice.

 

First: don't call this in youth ball (older F2's won't do it). It's too technical. Just tell him he needs to start with his feet in the box (if there is one — if not, you REALLY shouldn't call this). If it's really blatant and someone is complaining, call time and prevent the infraction.

 

Second: the balk penalty negates the pitch, so you're right they erred in adding a ball to the count.

 

An unusual rule: it refers to the release of the pitch, rather than the time of the pitch (or when F1 is committed to pitch). And that part of the rule is seldom enforced.

 

Also: it's a misnomer. It's a balk on the pitcher, not the catcher, because the offense is pitching when F2 is not in position.

 

Thanks.

 

What about the "while giving an intentional base on balls" language?  Why is that in there?

[Replacematt]

 

The "catcher's balk" is indeed a balk, and the guy/crew you saw screwed it up twice.

 

First: don't call this in youth ball (older F2's won't do it). It's too technical. Just tell him he needs to start with his feet in the box (if there is one — if not, you REALLY shouldn't call this). If it's really blatant and someone is complaining, call time and prevent the infraction.

 

Second: the balk penalty negates the pitch, so you're right they erred in adding a ball to the count.

 

An unusual rule: it refers to the release of the pitch, rather than the time of the pitch (or when F1 is committed to pitch). And that part of the rule is seldom enforced.

 

Also: it's a misnomer. It's a balk on the pitcher, not the catcher, because the offense is pitching when F2 is not in position.

 

Thanks.

 

What about the "while giving an intentional base on balls" language?  Why is that in there?

 

 

Because that's the only time it applies. That's the only time it applies because the writers didn't want the defense to just be able to pitch the ball willy-nilly to get a walk.

[noumpere]

Saw a situation yesterday at a LL Junior division game.

 

Balk was called by the HP umpire due to the catcher not being in the catcher's box at the time of the pitch.  

Isn't the LL catchers box the foul lines extended ( I don't do LL -- I only seem to remember this from the boards)?  The catcher needs to be WAY out there to be out of that box.

[Larry in TN]

 

 

What about the "while giving an intentional base on balls" language?  Why is that in there?

 

Because that's the only time it applies. That's the only time it applies because the writers didn't want the defense to just be able to pitch the ball willy-nilly to get a walk.

 

So it doesn't apply on a pitch-out that isn't part of an intentional walk?

 

On the play I saw it was R1 & R3 (not R2 as I originally stated) and the pitch-out was an attempt to catch R1 stealing 2B.  After the balk call you had only R2 so there was no reason to continue to pitch out nor was there every any apparent intention to issue an intentional walk.

[bleacher_bum]

The rule should be clearer, but for all intents and purposes, (IMO) should be interpreted to address the scenario when the catcher is standing (I.e. - issuing an intentional walk).  A pitch out trying to catch a runner stealing (again IMO) would be a kneeling catcher in the catcher's box.

[Replacematt]

 

 

 

What about the "while giving an intentional base on balls" language?  Why is that in there?

 

Because that's the only time it applies. That's the only time it applies because the writers didn't want the defense to just be able to pitch the ball willy-nilly to get a walk.

 

So it doesn't apply on a pitch-out that isn't part of an intentional walk?

 

On the play I saw it was R1 & R3 (not R2 as I originally stated) and the pitch-out was an attempt to catch R1 stealing 2B.  After the balk call you had only R2 so there was no reason to continue to pitch out nor was there every any apparent intention to issue an intentional walk.

 

 

It does not apply on pitchouts.

 

For all intents and purposes, it doesn't apply at all. I've never seen a situation that warrants that call in my career. A catcher would pretty much have to be in the on-deck circle at the time of the pitch for me to call it. 

[FlaUmp22]

 

The "catcher's balk" is indeed a balk, and the guy/crew you saw screwed it up twice.

 

First: don't call this in youth ball (older F2's won't do it). It's too technical. Just tell him he needs to start with his feet in the box (if there is one — if not, you REALLY shouldn't call this). If it's really blatant and someone is complaining, call time and prevent the infraction.

 

Second: the balk penalty negates the pitch, so you're right they erred in adding a ball to the count.

 

An unusual rule: it refers to the release of the pitch, rather than the time of the pitch (or when F1 is committed to pitch). And that part of the rule is seldom enforced.

 

Also: it's a misnomer. It's a balk on the pitcher, not the catcher, because the offense is pitching when F2 is not in position.

 

Thanks.

 

What about the "while giving an intentional base on balls" language?  Why is that in there?

 

 

According to the Wendelstedt Rules Manual, that is in there because back in the day the F2 would go way up the line to receive the pitch. That would eliminate any chance of the base runners stealing (not that they would on an IBB anyways) BUT that is the historical reference to why it specifically says while giving an intentional base on balls

[1dumbquestion]

 

Saw a situation yesterday at a LL Junior division game.

 

Balk was called by the HP umpire due to the catcher not being in the catcher's box at the time of the pitch.  

Isn't the LL catchers box the foul lines extended ( I don't do LL -- I only seem to remember this from the boards)?  The catcher needs to be WAY out there to be out of that box.

 

only in LL majors and below, at the 50/70 or JR and above the box is traditional.

[Larry in TN]

only in LL majors and below, at the 50/70 or JR and above the box is traditional.

 

That's correct.  Of course, at our league, they don't draw the catcher's box on the field (nor the running lane to 1B) which makes the call even more questionable.

[sthomas13100]

I am looking for the rule reference, I seem to remember that:

 

A "Balk" under OBR is always a delayed dead ball.  Enforce the balk unless the batter reaches base by a hit, BB, HBP. 

 

So, I would have thought you would place runners at 1st and 2nd, thus ignoring the balk. 

 

I know FED is immediately dead. Enforce the balk. No pitch.

 

I hate disagreeing with you guys, but I'm willing to be wrong in a effort to learn.

[grayhawk]

I am looking for the rule reference, I seem to remember that:

 

A "Balk" under OBR is always a delayed dead ball.  Enforce the balk unless the batter reaches base by a hit, BB, HBP.

 

So, I would have thought you would place runners at 1st and 2nd, thus ignoring the balk. 

 

I know FED is immediately dead. Enforce the balk. No pitch.

 

I hate disagreeing with you guys, but I'm willing to be wrong in a effort to learn.

 

The part I bolded is only partially correct.  The batter-runner and all runners have to advance at least one base to disregard the balk.  If you have R2 only, he would not advance a base on a HPB, correct?  Since he didn't advance at least one base, then the balk MUST be enforced, by rule.

 

As I said in my first post in this thread, if you had R1 only, or R1 and R2, or bases loaded and there was a balk followed by a HPB, then since the batter-runner's award would force all runners, then the balk would be disregarded.

[ALStripes17]

I am looking for the rule reference, I seem to remember that:

A "Balk" under OBR is always a delayed dead ball. Enforce the balk unless the batter reaches base by a hit, BB, HBP.

So, I would have thought you would place runners at 1st and 2nd, thus ignoring the balk.

I know FED is immediately dead. Enforce the balk. No pitch.

I hate disagreeing with you guys, but I'm willing to be wrong in a effort to learn.

If you're responding to the OP, that has been answered. Balk is enforced since not all runners AND BR advanced on play. R2 goes to 3B, same count on batter as before the balk

[noumpere]

 

A "Balk" under OBR is always a delayed dead ball. 

This statement is wrong. too; and others have corrected the other part that was wrong.

 

Most of the balks are immediately dead because they are not followed immediately by  a throw or a pitch.