Would you call a balk?

[carolinablue]

I feel stupid for not being sure about this but it's better to ask and stop being stupid than continue in the stupidity so...

 

HS game, R2 and R3, pitcher in windup with both hands together resting on knee. He gets his sign and doesn't like it so he lifts his hand out of glove and gives the universal circular motion for " I want another sign".  Is that a balk?

 

 

[VAUmp]

"Hands together resting on knee"???  I'm having a hard time picturing that.  

If he moved his glove in a circular motion while still on the rubber, BALK!

[BT_Blue]

I am guessing he has his hands really low, around where his knees are at, leaning forward to take the signs. At this point he SEPERATES his hands to ask for F2 to repeat the signals. Do I have this right?

If so, yes, F1 has seperated his hands and not continued his motion to pitch to home plate. At that point I have a balk.

[maven]

On the technical side, but yes, that's a start/stop balk. Moving his hands in that fashion committed him to pitch.

 

Just because it's stupid and he gets no advantage doesn't mean you shouldn't call it.

[carolinablue]

On the technical side, but yes, that's a start/stop balk. Moving his hands in that fashion committed him to pitch.

 

Just because it's stupid and he gets no advantage doesn't mean you shouldn't call it.

 That's why I didn't call it. If he was in set I would not have hesitated but from windup he gets no advantage. Not saying I'm right just giving my thought process. I wasn't sure, that's why I asked.

[carolinablue]

I am guessing he has his hands really low, around where his knees are at, leaning forward to take the signs. At this point he SEPERATES his hands to ask for F2 to repeat the signals. Do I have this right?

If so, yes, F1 has seperated his hands and not continued his motion to pitch to home plate. At that point I have a balk.

 Exactly what happened.

[Dash Riprock]

 

I am guessing he has his hands really low, around where his knees are at, leaning forward to take the signs. At this point he SEPERATES his hands to ask for F2 to repeat the signals. Do I have this right?

If so, yes, F1 has seperated his hands and not continued his motion to pitch to home plate. At that point I have a balk.

 Exactly what happened.

 

You have to balk this.  How do you respond to the O coach who asks: "He separated his hands - why isn't that a balk?"

[Jimurray]

I am guessing he has his hands really low, around where his knees are at, leaning forward to take the signs. At this point he SEPERATES his hands to ask for F2 to repeat the signals. Do I have this right?

If so, yes, F1 has seperated his hands and not continued his motion to pitch to home plate. At that point I have a balk.

Exactly what happened.

You have to balk this. How do you respond to the O coach who asks: "He separated his hands - why isn't that a balk?" This is rule book umpiring without common sense which FED encourages. But to go by the rule, the pitcher may have balked before this. How did he put his hands together? Both at the same time or not?

Has anybody heard of momentary adjustment? Even if that was not the case here, that's what I'm telling the coach.

Edited to add: Since the pitcher was in the windup you are probably going to balk in a cheap run.

[Platejob29]

I too have a hard tim picturing this one just because it seems like he would be in a pretty awkward stance to start his motion. If it's what I think you're saying he did than I've probably  got a balk. However I think this could be viewed as a momentary adjustment in which case it would be perfectly legal to do. 

[Dash Riprock]

A momentary adjustment does not entail separating the hands.  It is a pause after bringing them together.

[Jocko]

No way I'm balking this. In and of itself. If ALL that happens is all you've described, I'm not callin it. And only a true rat is gonna push the issue. But even if he does, he loses.

[th3]

But then how DO you answer the coach who knows the rule?

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[ricka56]

I'm with Jocko on this one. If you're balking someone in the wind-up position, that must mean there must have been a runner on 3B. Balking in a run on something like this is taking the express train to crapville.

 

Now if R3 broke for HP on this movement and got hung up, that different.

[BillKen]

I'd keep my mouth shut and not explain anything to him.  If he pressed the issue, I'd tell him that I don't owe him an explanation on every call or no call I make and that was a no-call.  The other side of this coin says that if you call that, you have to call every technical balk by the book and in HS ball, that would be about 10/game.  I'm not going there...so the coach can just get happy about the fact that he has an umpire that has a little common sense.

[maven]

A momentary adjustment does not entail separating the hands.  It is a pause after bringing them together.

 

When I first heard the case and was picturing it, my first thought was to wonder whether we could let it slide under the "momentary adjustment" exception.

 

But you're right: this is separation, not a pause for adjusting the ball with hands together. This is a balk.

 

As for coaches: you're going to have to explain one way or the other. I prefer to explain with the rules on MY side. This is a clear start/stop balk.

[Jimurray]

A momentary adjustment does not entail separating the hands.  It is a pause after bringing them together.

Momentary adjustment in th MLBUM and in Jim Evans video is a pitcher, in either the windup or set, with his hands apart, momentarily puts them together to adjust the ball and then separates them. Using that rational in the OP is probably a stretch but I'm not balking it and that's what I'm telling the coach.

[sdix00]

 

A momentary adjustment does not entail separating the hands.  It is a pause after bringing them together.

Momentary adjustment in th MLBUM and in Jim Evans video is a pitcher, in either the windup or set, with his hands apart, momentarily puts them together to adjust the ball and then separates them. Using that rational in the OP is probably a stretch but I'm not balking it and that's what I'm telling the coach.

 

 

AFAIK, a momentary adjustment is not allowed under NFHS.   Since there is no instruction to the umpire to consider intent or advantage/disadvantage when ruling on a balk, NFHS wants this called a balk every time. 

 

I will look for a citation (might be a website ruling), but this has been my understanding. 

 

I would add that I will allow F1 to "momentarily adjust" as part of his engaging and settling on to the rubber.  But once he is settled and begins to look for the sign, he is far more limited, as far as I am concerned. 

[grayhawk]

 

 

A momentary adjustment does not entail separating the hands.  It is a pause after bringing them together.

Momentary adjustment in th MLBUM and in Jim Evans video is a pitcher, in either the windup or set, with his hands apart, momentarily puts them together to adjust the ball and then separates them. Using that rational in the OP is probably a stretch but I'm not balking it and that's what I'm telling the coach.

 

 

AFAIK, a momentary adjustment is not allowed under NFHS.   Since there is no instruction to the umpire to consider intent or advantage/disadvantage when ruling on a balk, NFHS wants this called a balk every time. 

 

I will look for a citation (might be a website ruling), but this has been my understanding. 

 

I would add that I will allow F1 to "momentarily adjust" as part of his engaging and settling on to the rubber.  But once he is settled and begins to look for the sign, he is far more limited, as far as I am concerned. 

 

 

I agree - momentary adjustment is not permitted in Fed.

[noumpere]

 

 

 

AFAIK, a momentary adjustment is not allowed under NFHS.   Since there is no instruction to the umpire to consider intent or advantage/disadvantage when ruling on a balk, NFHS wants this called a balk every time. 

 

I will look for a citation (might be a website ruling), but this has been my understanding. 

 

I would add that I will allow F1 to "momentarily adjust" as part of his engaging and settling on to the rubber.  But once he is settled and begins to look for the sign, he is far more limited, as far as I am concerned. 

 

 

 

I agree with all of that, and with the others that if F1 is looking in for the sign with the hands together then separating them is a balk under any code.

[sdix00]

I feel stupid for not being sure about this but it's better to ask and stop being stupid than continue in the stupidity so...

 

HS game, R2 and R3, pitcher in windup with both hands together resting on knee. He gets his sign and doesn't like it so he lifts his hand out of glove and gives the universal circular motion for " I want another sign".  Is that a balk?

 

 

6.1.2 SITUATION D:

F1, while on the pitcher's plate in either the windup or set position, (a) adjusts his cap or (b) shakes off the signal with his glove, or © shakes off the signal with his head.

RULING: In (a) through ©, these are legal actions if these movements of the arms and legs are not associated with the pitch.

[noumpere]

The case play by sdix supports calling it a balk

[Jimurray]

The case play by sdix supports calling it a balk

The rule supports calling it a balk. I'm not arguing that. The case play also allows not calling it a balk or calling it a balk based on umpire judgement. If you are using common sense to not balk the pitcher taking the rubber and going to his glove for the ball then I think you can use common sense to not call this a balk.

[JaxRolo]

The case play by sdix supports calling it a balk

So are you saying that (b) shakes off the signal with his glove is legal but if he uses his other hand is a balk?

[noumpere]

 

The case play by sdix supports calling it a balk

The rule supports calling it a balk. I'm not arguing that. The case play also allows not calling it a balk or calling it a balk based on umpire judgement. If you are using common sense to not balk the pitcher taking the rubber and going to his glove for the ball then I think you can use common sense to not call this a balk.

 

 

You missed the "if these movements of the arms and legs are not associated with the pitch" part of the ruling.  Separating the hands is by definition the start of the pitch.  See 2-28-3 "any movement of the arms or legs... with hands already together"

[Dash Riprock]

 

A momentary adjustment does not entail separating the hands.  It is a pause after bringing them together.

Momentary adjustment in th MLBUM and in Jim Evans video is a pitcher, in either the windup or set, with his hands apart, momentarily puts them together to adjust the ball and then separates them. Using that rational in the OP is probably a stretch but I'm not balking it and that's what I'm telling the coach.Here's the whole quote.

 

 

A momentary adjustment does not entail separating the hands.  It is a pause after bringing them together.

Momentary adjustment in th MLBUM and in Jim Evans video is a pitcher, in either the windup or set, with his hands apart, momentarily puts them together to adjust the ball and then separates them. Using that rational in the OP is probably a stretch but I'm not balking it and that's what I'm telling the coach.

 

Here's the whole quote from the MLBUM:

 

"Prior to assuming a legal pitching position (windup or set position) it is permissible for the pitcher to momentarily adjust the ball in his glove.  In order for this to be allowed, the movement must be momentary in nature.  If the pitcher has his hands together long enough that, in the judgment of the umpire, it appears that he has actually come to a set position or has actually assumed the windup position, then should the pitcher separate his hands, a balk shall be called under OBR 8.05(j)."