Consulting

[ALStripes17]

In my time around the community (like most umpires), I have gotten to know a lot of HS coaches around the area. In saying that, I field a lot of phone calls from said coaches with rule questions. Obviously, these normally come up due to some scenario that happened in their recent games. I never have any problems answering questions, with caution that I get all the details (or as much as they can give me). My final sentence is normally, "...if it happened the way you said it did," and they understand. My convos are normally followed up with an 'FYI' email to my assignor. Do any of you find yourselves in that sort of consulting position in your areas?

[BigUmpire]

Slippery slope talking to these guys.

 

What you say will be used against you later as LOTS of people know how to ask questions to get the answer they want.

I assure you the questioning coach will not include your caveats when relating this to others.

 

You may want to always state this conversation goes no further than us two.

[Mike Prince]

Your conversations may not be used directly against you, but the crew that worked a given game.  Key details can easily be left out to form an "innocent" question and your answers used to submarine the crew that worked a game, either via a protest he hasn't told you about or a complaint to your assignor.

 

Personally I wouldn't have these conversations unless it was a game you personally worked and even then I would proceed carefully.

 

The "off the record" stuff is BS, especially in a competitive environment.

[BigUmpire]

Your conversations may not be used directly against you, but the crew that worked a given game.  Key details can easily be left out to form an "innocent" question and your answers used to submarine the crew that worked a game, either via a protest he hasn't told you about or a complaint to your assignor.

 

Personally I wouldn't have these conversations unless it was a game you personally worked and even then I would proceed carefully.

 

The "off the record" stuff is BS, especially in a competitive environment.

Dead on Mike Prince!

[scrounge]

Slippery slope talking to these guys.

 

What you say will be used against you later as LOTS of people know how to ask questions to get the answer they want.

I assure you the questioning coach will not include your caveats when relating this to others.

 

You may want to always state this conversation goes no further than us two.

 

If they're the type to manipulate and twist your answer, they're probably not the type to respect your condition of keeping it between the two of you.

 

If it's truly a "hey, help me understand this rule" question, I have no problem answering. Anything getting close to judgment calls or asking for a verdict on performance, I'm keeping it VERY general or just saying I couldn't really say unless I saw it.

[Mike Prince]

In my time around the community (like most umpires), I have gotten to know a lot of HS coaches around the area. In saying that, I field a lot of phone calls from said coaches with rule questions. Obviously, these normally come up due to some scenario that happened in their recent games. I never have any problems answering questions, with caution that I get all the details (or as much as they can give me). My final sentence is normally, "...if it happened the way you said it did," and they understand. My convos are normally followed up with an 'FYI' email to my assignor. Do any of you find yourselves in that sort of consulting position in your areas?

 

Key statement right here.  IMO if you don't work that game you should not comment on it, the coach has an agenda here whether he tells you or not.  Simple rule questions, sure you can be a nice guy and answer but even this can get twisted and used against you so be careful.  Unless you are the rules interpreter for your assn I would stay away from anything except the most general of questions.  Should have mentioned this in my original post.

[KLAH316]

The times coaches ask me questions about situations I always leave it generic and add in "That's a had to be there situation and me not seeing it with my own eyes, I'm not going to second guess the umpires that did."

[JaxRolo]

You're throwing other umpires under the bus

[johnnyg08]

Yeah, I am very careful commenting on situations that I did not personally witness.

I'm much more apt to offer rule information as opposed to judgment information.

Almost 100% of the time people ask the wrong question or incorrectly describe the situation.

Always answer "here's what the rule says…and you can apply it to the situation that you saw." or "I didn't see the play with my eyes, so I'm not sure why they ruled the way they did."

Unless of course, I really trust the person asking me, I might offer more information…I will never throw another umpire under the bus…just remember, you're next. We are only as good as our next call.

I forgot to mention…you should always say "as you describe the situation…since I'm only getting one version of the scenario…"

[Thunderheads]

Here's an idea ..........send them here to ASK THE UMPIRE!

 

I win, .... problem solved

[ALStripes17]

Thank you all for the insight. I'll never throw another umpire under the bus to a coach. In the situations that coaches have asked me this year have been direct rule questions (mound visits, DH substitution rules, etc.) ... most of these conversations entail quoting the rule book and telling them to use that knowledge as they will.

When umpires are telling coaches to pull a pitcher after 2 visits in an inning (only 2 visits coach has made all game) or the umpire allows the DH to play the field at the same time as the F2 for whom he is hitting, then the umpires are putting themselves in front of the bus. There shall be no throwing.

Thank y'all again for your input. That's why this forum rocks.

[LMSANS]

When asked questions, I will use the rulebook as a generic guide.  I never address specific situations from games, but will say, "the rule is..." for a given scenario.

[Umpire in Chief]

I would have to agree with most of the others here. I wouldn't make myself available to answer such questions for coaches no matter what type of caveat is put on it. 

 

IMO it will only come back to hurt you in some way. 

 

Possibly if your group had an official rules interpreter who could be the coaches go to person for such questions.

[ALStripes17]

I definitely like the "association/local rules interpreter" idea.

[maineump]

What stripes said  - pass it to them to answer for the association. If they ask a rule question or interpretation, it would come from the guy who makes the big bucks!

The coach probably is asking because of something that went bad for him and will end up saying "well so and so said..."

[GetItRight]

In my time around the community (like most umpires), I have gotten to know a lot of HS coaches around the area. In saying that, I field a lot of phone calls from said coaches with rule questions. Obviously, these normally come up due to some scenario that happened in their recent games. I never have any problems answering questions, with caution that I get all the details (or as much as they can give me). My final sentence is normally, "...if it happened the way you said it did," and they understand. My convos are normally followed up with an 'FYI' email to my assignor. Do any of you find yourselves in that sort of consulting position in your areas?

This is the absolute key thing to say.

 

When listening to a play sitch from a game that you didn't actually see, unless it is from the umpires involved themselves, you will almost NEVER be getting a clear and unbiased summary of what actually occurred.  This isn't because people are trying to hide things or be disingenuous, but very often coaches, fans, and even players don't fully understand the rules and very often have trouble comprehending exactly what happened on the field in it's entirety.  It is simply amazing how 3 different people can be watching the exact same game and then come away with 3 different versions of what actually happened.

 

When talking to coaches, fans, players, etc about situations that happened in other games that I didn't see, I almost always proceed under the assumption that key pieces of information are missing from the story.  Even if it's from a coach who's knowledge of the game I generally respect.  The only person that I know is going to give me the straight, unvarnished truth is the involved umpire.  Well, at least most of the time.

 

What I will typically do when talking to non-umpires is to state the rules involved in the version of the play that they have described to me, and then make statements such as "If that happened exactly the way that you say it did, the ruling should have been this."  This will often be followed by something along the lines of "what the umpire might have been thinking was..."

 

Edit to add that some people here seem to take things a little too seriously.  I have no problem discussing plays with people that I know well, including a select few coaches.  I will often ask who the umpires involved were and then if I know them well will say some positive things about them to the coach in question.  If I don't have anything positive to say about them, I will simply say that I don't know them that well.

 

High school baseball is not life and death and I refuse to be a part of some Blue Wall of Silence just because someone might get their feelings hurt.  It just isn't that big of deal, and really shouldn't be, to anyone.

[ricka56]

In my time around the community (like most umpires), I have gotten to know a lot of HS coaches around the area. In saying that, I field a lot of phone calls from said coaches with rule questions.

Remember, no good deed goes unpunished. You may become the coach's source for rules knowledge (in and of itself, not a bad thing) but it may look to your umpire collegues like you're one of "them", not one of us.

 

And as others have pointed out, bringing coaches into your circle of trust will eventually come to bite you in the arse.

[Kevin_K]

I would also hope that your "FYI email" does not include any names or references to schools, teams, or dates. It would be a very sticky wicket when your e-mail gets forwarded.

[treydawgmt]

I get asked questions like this at games sometimes, usually the travel ball, lower level stuff.  One game I was doing for an organization I rarely worked for and finally decided it wasn't worth it at all I did kinda throw an ump under the bus.  This organization is kinda sloppy all the way around.  I worked once with a guy who had a hat I SWEAR was 20 years old.  Routinely for all the games I worked my partner showed up 3 minutes before game time and asked me then if I was dressed for the plate because he was "running a few minutes behind."  Or he was "tired".  Or any other of hundreds of reasons to not work the plate.  (No worries, I'd really rather not see your strike zone anyway...)

 

Point of the story is, a coach asked me about a play in an earlier game.  He said the ball bounced on the ground, hit is player, but it was called a dead ball.  He didn't think it was right.  He said he talked with him and the umpire told him that whenever the ball hits the ground it is an immediate dead ball.  I sorta threw that guy under the bus...

 

Most of the time it's a simple "had to be there."

[johnnyg08]

I get asked questions like this at games sometimes, usually the travel ball, lower level stuff.  One game I was doing for an organization I rarely worked for and finally decided it wasn't worth it at all I did kinda throw an ump under the bus.  This organization is kinda sloppy all the way around.  I worked once with a guy who had a hat I SWEAR was 20 years old.  Routinely for all the games I worked my partner showed up 3 minutes before game time and asked me then if I was dressed for the plate because he was "running a few minutes behind."  Or he was "tired".  Or any other of hundreds of reasons to not work the plate.  (No worries, I'd really rather not see your strike zone anyway...)

 

Point of the story is, a coach asked me about a play in an earlier game.  He said the ball bounced on the ground, hit is player, but it was called a dead ball.  He didn't think it was right.  He said he talked with him and the umpire told him that whenever the ball hits the ground it is an immediate dead ball.  I sorta threw that guy under the bus...

 

Most of the time it's a simple "had to be there."

I'm assuming that this is referring to a pitched ball, bouncing in the dirt, and then striking the batter?

[Larry in TN]

I think that a coach who wants to learn the rules is a good thing and should be supported.  If all he's doing is looking for ammunition for his protest then that's another story.

 

I think the way to handle these questions is to discuss generic situations revolving around the rule in question.  Don't make any judgments about what happened in the coaches game.  Talk about "if this and this happened then he's out" or "if that happened then he's safe".  Teach him the rule and let him make the judgement.

[ricka56]

If one is getting inquiries about rule(s) from coaches, perhaps one could give him the rule number, let him look it up and make up his own mind on how the rule applies to his situation. This way the resource umpire isn't trying to make heads-tails of a scenerio that he didn't witness and he can't be misinterpreted.

[Lala]

If one is getting inquiries about rule(s) from coaches, perhaps one could give him the rule number, let him look it up and make up his own mind on how the rule applies to his situation. This way the resource umpire isn't trying to make heads-tails of a scenerio that he didn't witness and he can't be misinterpreted.

 

I think this is great advice.  By giving the rule reference, the coach/spectator/AD can make their own judgement and you don't have to be put in the position of potentially "picking sides" by agree/disagreeing with the coach or umpire.  

[spiritump]

should not High School coaches know the rules--what are they paid for ????

[bleacher_bum]

should not High School coaches know the rules--what are they paid for ????

They should, but as everyone knows, not all of them do.  But even knowing the rules, there are many times when interpretation and talking about certain situations can be beneficial to both parties.