Baserunner goes to right field

[Guest Daryl]

Recently played a high school baseball game where the opposing team, with a runner on 3rd base, and the batter getting a base on balls, had the batter run to first and then continue towards the right fielder until he was about 20 feet from the right field position (about 100 feet from first and about 50 feet from the right field foul line.  After a bit of confusion, our first baseman received the ball and then moved towards the runner and then threw too late for the runner going home.  After the play, the umpire was asked about the validity of the play when a runner, without attempting to directly advance, runs near the right fielder and then stops.  It seems to make a mockery of the game.  It was explained by the umpire that the runner can locate wherever he wants and that that location establishes the baseline for the runner.  Thus, with this example, the baseline would not be a straight line between bases, but a line that goes from second base for about 150 feet toward the right field foul pole, and then angles back towards first base.

 

I found the explanation of the ruling quite confusing.  It was stated that according to the UIL and NFHS rules, that the runner at first can establish any running line to second, and thus locate himself in right field.  Is this true?

[blue23ll]

 

 

Here is how I would defend the play. Please let me know if agree or dis agree.

If R1 is just standing in right field, I would consider this his lead off.

I would just have my pitcher step off the rubber and ask for time.

Now no one can advance.

Am I right about this?

 

Calling time is not correct, as the play is still in progress. BR/R1 can advance or return to first, and he can also be put out on a tag. The way to defend this play is to ignore R1, until he commits to return to first or advance to second.

 

If F1 is standing there with the ball looking at me and requesting time, there is no play in progress.

 

R1 is leading off, and the fact that he is off the base is no reason to deny a legitimate request for time, his unusual choice of lead-off spot notwithstanding. If R1 were in a more customary lead-off spot, nobody would think twice about granting time.

 

The BR has just received a base on balls, he has run to first and past first (where he goes is immaterial), there is no reason to allow time to be called until the action has relaxed. To take this scenario in another direction, what if the BR didn't stop and just rounded first and headed for second?

[Mike Prince]

Answered that in my first post.

maven

I did it in less words 

[Jocko]

Devil's advocate - F1 throws to F3 who holds the ball. Does nothing else. Just stands there holding the he ball. What are you going to do to get the game going? Tell him to throw it back, right? So he does. F1 steps on the rubber, legally steps off and throws back to F3. Who, again, just stands there with the ball. Lather, rinse, repeat. At some point, the game must continue. What do you do? And for the sake of argument, this is a HS game (no time limit). Technically, both team's actions are completely legal.

[maven]

"Pitch to the batter."

If he doesn't, then I'll start pitching.

maven

[Jocko]

"Pitch to the batter."If he doesn't, then I'll start pitching. :)maven

what rule are you going to apply for not allowing legally throwing to an occupied base? Again, I'm just playing Devil's advocate

[ricka56]

Devil's advocate - F1 throws to F3 who holds the ball. Does nothing else. Just stands there holding the he ball. What are you going to do to get the game going? 

 

Well, that is a fair game management question. ...It continued and showed no sign of concluding. You want to let the teams work it out, but there comes a point where it looks like you're losing control of the game, Players, coaches, fans are begining to come unglued.

 

How about this...Call Time, tell F2 to go to the mound, call an impromtu plate meeting. Explain to the HCs that I'll allow this strategy to continue, but any, and I mean any,signs of unsportmanship will be dealt with and with little to no latitude. If they want to turn this game into a fiasco, they better do it quietly.  Then alert facility management to chuck any/all fan outbursts.  

 

Keep calm, breathe, see if they come to their senses, start chucking people at the first sign of "noise"...and hope that your bladder holds out. 

[Jocko]

I take it by the lack of response that there's no concensus on an appropriate way to handle this BUSH LEAGUE HORSESH*#.

I've seen this garbage exactly 2 times in all my years of umpiring. And there's nothing technically illegal about either team's actions. So we have to decide which team to call in from the funny farm. The DT is doing nothing out of the ordinary. My angst isnt with them. The OT is engaging in sandlot tactics in an attempt to get the DT to make a dumb mistake and score an easy run. The savvy DT HC will tell his team to play on as normal and hope for an easy double play. But, since this rarely happens on fields with coaches who actually know/understand/respect the game, it's plausible that the DT HC won't be any more baseball savvy than the jackwagon who teaches his players to do like this. So, at some point, we, the stewards of the game, must take charge.

One way is to call time. By rule, all baserunners must retouch, or be in normal proximity to their legally occupied base before we can put the ball in play. Do this a few times (there's no reason I wouldn't grant TIME in this case) and hopefully the rectal orifice OTHC will see the futility in his failed attempt and get back to fundamentals.

But what if he doesn't?

There's no possible rule jnterp that will give me standing to tell F1 he MUST pitch and not legally throw to an occupied base. So that's not an option. What to do???

Ricka gave a viable option. Within the rules. We can stand here all day and all be within our rights under the rules. But are we within the spirit of the rules? The spirit of fair play?

Many may think 9.01 © or its fed equivalent, but both team's actions ARE covered by the rulebook. So that's not an option.

so, let's look elsewhere. Hmmmm.....

Let's explore. What exactly IS 'The Spirit of Fair Play'?

Some will say it is insuring that, under the rules, that neither team gains an unfair advantage. And they would be correct. But does it mean more than just that? I think so. It also encompasses the spirit of the game. The purity of the institution that is Baseball.

Which team is detracting from that purity? Which team is stepping outside the boundaries of accepted practices and tactics? Which team is looking for loopholes not covered by rule/case?

I've said before....HCs are the lawyers. We are the judges. And, as in a court of law, the lawyers job is to quote precedent and argue why their case is within the confines of the law. The judge has to rule on, not only the wording of the law, but the spirit of the law. What is the INTENT of the law as written?

Baseball rules are written to make sure the game is played legally. Rules interps/case plays are written to help us, the Umpires, apply those rules fairly and accurately.

Since this situation isn't covered by either interp/case, we have two options. Allow the horseSH*# to continue and try to manage the game under adverse conditions. Or, we can apply a rule that will reign in the game and continue as normal.

NFHS 3-3-1-g-4 "A coach, player, substitute, attendant, or other bench personnel shall not: commit any unsportsmanlike act to include but not limited to: behavior in any manner not in accordance with the spirit of fair play. PENALTY - The umpire shall eject the offender from the game, unless the offense is judged to be minor in nature. The umpire may warn the offender and then eject him if he repeats the offense."

This is a stretch, I'll grant you that. But no more so than the knucklehead OTHC elongating the rules to include R1 taking his lead in deep right field. This way, we ALL have rules backing our actions.

Here's how I handled it. F1 threw to F3 in a legal "pickoff" several times. Each time he was told to throw it back. F2 called time to go talk to his pitcher. Granted. R1 returned to first. PLAY! R1 trots out and stands beside F9. HC calls time. Granted. Asks me if he's out of the baseline. Fair question. No. He isn't. R1 returns to 1B (after being instructed to do so, and after I had to explain why to the OTHC). PLAY! F1 throws to F5. R3 safe. No balk. F1 throws to F3. No play, no call. *I'm getting frustrated* THROW IT BACK. F1 again throws legally to F5. R3 safe. Again to F3. I call time and signal OTHC in and tell him to knock it off and lets play. Why? It's legal, isn't it? According to baserunning rules, yes. But I'm invoking 3-3-1-g-4 and this is your warning. (Explained the rule). R1 takes a 'normal' lead, OTHC grumbles and mumbles, and the game continued with no further shenanigans.

The other time It happened, the DT successfully got R1 for out of the basepath, and subsequently threw out R3 trying to score (he was spectating, not running bases).

YMMV, but until the rules/case writers include this, I'm handling it as I've written. Flame away. But I have a RULE backing me. Noone else has cited one to back their stance.

[BigUmpire]

I get me an out and have an off the record talk with the coach.

I generally dont get much back talk.

[JaxRolo]

I take it by the lack of response that there's no concensus on an appropriate way to handle this BUSH LEAGUE HORSESH*#.

IMHO both coaches are equally at fault.

 

I would let them do what they want. Once they start playing ball again my strike zone magically grew 2 balls in each direction.

 

Swing the bats MOFOs!!!

[BigUmpire]

Chief Rolo says:

These are unwritten rules of " Game Management"

[Jocko]

I take it by the lack of response that there's no concensus on an appropriate way to handle this BUSH LEAGUE HORSESH*#.

IMHO both coaches are equally at fault. I would let them do what they want. Once they start playing ball again my strike zone magically grew 2 balls in each direction. Swing the bats MOFOs!!!agree that both coaches are equally baseball ignorant. But not equally at fault.

[JaxRolo]

Chief Rolo says:

These are unwritten rules of " Game Management"

 

Sounds like a Book Title

[johnnyg08]

Sorry, I got an out.

Go ahead and protest.

Another stupid FED rule.

 

can't make your own rules.

[johnnyg08]

I get me an out and have an off the record talk with the coach.

I generally dont get much back talk.

 

where do you become the morals police?  just umpire the game

[johnnyg08]

I generally dont get much back talk.

In a FED game by rule there can't be much back talk. So if this is FED I wouldn't equate amount of back talk to whether or not you had a good game.

It's not the umpire's job to determine what is or isn't bush league within the rules of the game. Many of us have been around the game long enough to know what is/isn't bush league. When the FED specifically states that skunk in the outfield is legal, who are you to have your own set of rules and rule opposite the FED?

[BigUmpire]

I am big umpire.

[Jocko]

I generally dont get much back talk.

In a FED game by rule there can't be much back talk. So if this is FED I wouldn't equate amount of back talk to whether or not you had a good game.It's not the umpire's job to determine what is or isn't bush league within the rules of the game. Many of us have been around the game long enough to know what is/isn't bush league. When the FED specifically states that skunk in the outfield is legal, who are you to have your own set of rules and rule opposite the FED?can you point me to where this is addressed? If I've overlooked it, I need to see it for myself. Not doubting you, but I need a rule/case to stand on.

[johnnyg08]

can you point me to where this is addressed? If I've overlooked it, I need to see it for myself. Not doubting you, but I need a rule/case to stand on.

I believe I remember seeing it in a preseason guide a few years ago.

But I'm not 100% on that.

[yawetag]

Since this situation isn't covered by either interp/case, we have two options.

 

Actually, I think the FED Case Book has (or had) the play given and mentioned it was a legal move.

[johnnyg08]

 

Since this situation isn't covered by either interp/case, we have two options.

 

Actually, I think the FED Case Book has (or had) the play given and mentioned it was a legal move.

 

It's somewhere. How's that for a cite?    

[BigSimonia]

FED 6.2.2a - throwing to F3 when R1 is 100 feet away is not an attempt to retire the runner.  For purposes of 6.2.4b 1st is "occupied"

[ALStripes17]

What rule does the runner violate under 8.4.2 in order to be called out by some of the umps on here?

Baserunner establishes his baseline to either base when he goes to right field. Once he makes a move to either base, that is his baseline to that base (in regards to avoiding a tag by a fielder). If the runner decides to change direction after making his 1st choice, he has established his new baseline to the other base and the previous one is obsolete.

Ex. R1 is in shallow RF. F3 runs from 1B towards R1. R1 runs in a direct line to 2B. F3 throws ball to F6 on 2B. Runner stops in his established baseline towards 2B and may either continue towards 2B on same line or establish his new baseline which is in a direct line with 1B. Repeat until the planets and stars realign and the world becomes tolerable.

If the defense requests Time in anyway, it can be granted as long as the umpire judges that action has ceased. If play becomes dead, a runner must touch his base per 8.2.9

If Time, retouch, play ball continues, don't grant Time and order pitcher to pitch.

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[Jocko]

@BigSimonia - nice try. Doesn't apply. He can legally throw to F3 with R1 standing atop the bag with both feet. Its neither an attempt to retire nor drive back. Love to see you balk him for THAT. Try again.

[ALStripes17]

Correction: Order pitcher to either make a play on any runners or pitch.

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[Jocko]

What rule does the runner violate under 8.4.2 in order to be called out by some of the umps on here?Baserunner establishes his baseline to either base when he goes to right field. Once he makes a move to either base, that is his baseline to that base (in regards to avoiding a tag by a fielder). If the runner decides to change direction after making his 1st choice, he has established his new baseline to the other base and the previous one is obsolete.Ex. R1 is in shallow RF. F3 runs from 1B towards R1. R1 runs in a direct line to 2B. F3 throws ball to F6 on 2B. Runner stops in his established baseline towards 2B and may either continue towards 2B on same line or establish his new baseline which is in a direct line with 1B. Repeat until the planets and stars realign and the world becomes tolerable.If the defense requests Time in anyway, it can be granted as long as the umpire judges that action has ceased. If play becomes dead, a runner must touch his base per 8.2.9If Time, retouch, play ball continues, don't grant Time and order pitcher to pitch.Sent from my SM-G730V using Tapatalk

concerning your first question, I have no out unless/until he runs out of the base path during an attempted play on him or he is tagged.

as far as ordering the pitcher to pitch and not allow him to throw to an occupied base.....cite a rule where you have that right.

For the sake of argument.....R1 in right field. F1 throws over to F5 25 times without ever balking. You telling me you have the right to disallow this legal defensive move?

Didnt think so.