Baserunner goes to right field

[Guest Daryl]

Recently played a high school baseball game where the opposing team, with a runner on 3rd base, and the batter getting a base on balls, had the batter run to first and then continue towards the right fielder until he was about 20 feet from the right field position (about 100 feet from first and about 50 feet from the right field foul line.  After a bit of confusion, our first baseman received the ball and then moved towards the runner and then threw too late for the runner going home.  After the play, the umpire was asked about the validity of the play when a runner, without attempting to directly advance, runs near the right fielder and then stops.  It seems to make a mockery of the game.  It was explained by the umpire that the runner can locate wherever he wants and that that location establishes the baseline for the runner.  Thus, with this example, the baseline would not be a straight line between bases, but a line that goes from second base for about 150 feet toward the right field foul pole, and then angles back towards first base.

 

I found the explanation of the ruling quite confusing.  It was stated that according to the UIL and NFHS rules, that the runner at first can establish any running line to second, and thus locate himself in right field.  Is this true?

[JaxRolo]

Correction: Order pitcher to either make a play on any runners or pitch.

Sent from my SM-G730V using Tapatalk

?

[Jocko]

Just saw the correction.

[acpar72]

Mockery

[ALStripes17]

Correction: Order pitcher to either make a play on any runners or pitch.

Sent from my SM-G730V using Tapatalk

?

Jax - I was correcting my final thought in previous post (as Jocko saw very quickly, thats why I love this forum)

The pitcher can either make a play on a runner or pitch. I personally would say "Play ball" or "Let's play" in the hopes the pitcher would interpret that as "Pitch."

Sent from my SM-G730V using Tapatalk

[ricka56]

Here's how I handled it. .. I call time and signal OTHC in and tell him to knock it off and lets play. Why? It's legal, isn't it? According to baserunning rules, yes. But I'm invoking 3-3-1-g-4 and this is your warning. (Explained the rule). R1 takes a 'normal' lead, OTHC grumbles and mumbles, and the game continued with no further shenanigans.

But what if shenanigans continue. Since you're warning/invoking 3-3-1-g4, I assume that you'd EJ OHC for deliberately disregarding your warning. If it is a state that allows protest, then you might be in trouble. Now you are no longer the judge. In this protest hearing, you are one of the lawyer types that you wrote about. You can argue that their antics violated your sence of "the spirit of fair play", the EJ'd coach can argue that the play was "fair " and legal and the committee decides.

 

If I ever have a game go to a protest committee, I hope I'll have a better argument than a claim of a 3-3-1-g4 violation.

[Jocko]

No protest here. But it's not the coaches task to judge fair or foul, right?

And even If there WERE a protest, its a non-protestable judgement.

[JaxRolo]

 

 

Correction: Order pitcher to either make a play on any runners or pitch.

Sent from my SM-G730V using Tapatalk

?

 

Jax - I was correcting my final thought in previous post (as Jocko saw very quickly, thats why I love this forum)

The pitcher can either make a play on a runner or pitch. I personally would say "Play ball" or "Let's play" in the hopes the pitcher would interpret that as "Pitch."

Sent from my SM-G730V using Tapatalk

 

Yes I saw that afterwords. Thanks!

[maven]

as far as ordering the pitcher to pitch and not allow him to throw to an occupied base.....cite a rule where you have that right.

OBR 9.01(b)

FED 10-1-1

 

And if they're really going to stand around all day playing skunk in the outfield, I, for one, will invoke this provision to get us back to baseball.

 

Note that the permission granted by these rules does not warrant calling anyone out.

[Jocko]

HUUUUUUUUUUGE stretch. Maybe more than 3-3-1. Im curious how this would actually play out...

Ok. Thats enough throws to an occupied base. Now pitch. Because your action affects the administration of the rules.

(Interesting, theres not only no warrant for calling anyone out, but no provision for non compliance)

I can have my pitcher throw to 3rd 100 times if we wish. How does THAT affect the administration of the rules???

Cmon coach....pleeeeease? Pretty please? With sugar on top?

Of course, there's another solution. If you're in the camp of being more towards the DT is the one screwing around and wasting time. Set your balk radar on its most sensitive. Nit pick but be fair. Games where garbage like this goes on are generally ones with less experienced players as well. More likely to commit technical balks that we would usually overlook. That'll show 'em!

[BigUmpire]

HUUUUUUUUUUGE stretch. Maybe more than 3-3-1. Im curious how this would actually play out...

Ok. Thats enough throws to an occupied base. Now pitch. Because your action affects the administration of the rules.

(Interesting, theres not only no warrant for calling anyone out, but no provision for non compliance)

I can have my pitcher throw to 3rd 100 times if we wish. How does THAT affect the administration of the rules???

Cmon coach....pleeeeease? Pretty please? With sugar on top?

Of course, there's another solution. If you're in the camp of being more towards the DT is the one screwing around and wasting time. Set your balk radar on its most sensitive. Nit pick but be fair. Games where garbage like this goes on are generally ones with less experienced players as well. More likely to commit technical balks that we would usually overlook. That'll show 'em!

Good wisdom here. Not in the book BUT years of experence on game management.

[maven]

 

HUUUUUUUUUUGE stretch. Maybe more than 3-3-1. Im curious how this would actually play out...

Ok. Thats enough throws to an occupied base. Now pitch. Because your action affects the administration of the rules.

(Interesting, theres not only no warrant for calling anyone out, but no provision for non compliance)

I can have my pitcher throw to 3rd 100 times if we wish. How does THAT affect the administration of the rules???

Cmon coach....pleeeeease? Pretty please? With sugar on top?

Of course, there's another solution. If you're in the camp of being more towards the DT is the one screwing around and wasting time. Set your balk radar on its most sensitive. Nit pick but be fair. Games where garbage like this goes on are generally ones with less experienced players as well. More likely to commit technical balks that we would usually overlook. That'll show 'em!

Good wisdom here. Not in the book BUT years of experence on game management.

 

 

I don't dispute the wisdom of experience, but I don't agree with the idea of using a balk to get out of the situation, any more than I like calling the runner out.

 

The runner in the outfield is trying to gain an advantage using a bogus if technically legal tactic. If you advance those runners because of a borderline balk call, then you give the offense their advantage by scoring R3. For me, that's as unfair to the defense as calling R1 out is to the offense.

 

The tactic backfires if the pitcher simply pitches to the batter and ignores that runner (ask Rich Ives). R1 is FARTHER from 2B than he would be standing on 1B with no lead at all. The best solution, both in terms of the rules, game management, and fairness to both teams, is to require the pitcher to get on with it.

 

For players below a certain age, one could call time, tell both coaches that, although the tactic is technically legal it is bush, and tell the defensive coach that his pitcher is to pitch to the batter. I might even explain that R1 has put himself at a disadvantage by being so far from 2B. Then toss the COACH if he fails to comply, rather than the pitcher.

[Jocko]

@maven - I would not call a balk here unless my granmother sees It. The DT is not doing anything outside the norm. By that same token, Im not gonna require F1 to pitch. If R3 is any kind of baserunner at all, he has gained an unfair advantage, knowing that F1 is under orders to ignore him. And since these teams are inexperienced, when R3 breaks on first move, theres very likely to be a balk. Now OT has capitalized on the unfair advantage Ive given them in the knowledge of F1's next move.

I do like the idea of explaining the disadvantage to DT, but that oversteps my realm of authority. Now Ive become a coach to the coach.

I can also not rationalize ORDERING F1 to pitch and tossing HC if he doesn't. Might as well order B4 to bunt. Same authority apllies.....none. thankfully, I dont call many games at these levels anymore.

There are likely some new/er umpires out there going, " OMG. What's the right thing to do?"

Best advice is to read/study/KNOW your rule book and have black and white backing when you encounter crap like this. It will happen. And you need to have a rule to back you.

All things change if the game is played under a time limit. Now you can judge that one team is intentionally wasting time. And on that, you do have a solid rule to stand on.

[ALStripes17]

2nd year umpire here (Both FED and Dixie). Nothing much better than the black and white of the rulebooks.

This forum (and thread particularly) is why I became an umpire. To stay involved with the game and increase my passion. The POV we get as umpires is second to none when you have rulebook knowledge and a clue re: game management.

I was a part of teams that run "skunk in the grass" and one of the rules my HS coach had was "if we run a play, we are gonna be able to defend it also." Needless to say, there was not much of a defense to this play other than pitch and play ball as if the guy was just leading off of first.

From an umpire's standpoint, my previous post on this thread covers my thoughts on it

All that rambling to say "Thanks" to all y'all on here. I appreciate all of the viewpoints and insight as a learning tool

We have two requirements as officials: make it safe; make it fair

[mstaylor]

Sorry, I got an out.

Go ahead and protest.

Another stupid FED rule.

Not a Fed rule, it is the same in OBR and NCAA.

[UmpTTS43]

The only time I have seen, or more accurately heard, of these strategies occurring is when there is a game time limit. If so, so be it. I'm out after X amount of time anyway.

[mstaylor]

I have never seen a Shunk in the Outfield play, but neither have I seen a Broken Mirror play. The fact is they are legal plays and we really can't insert our views into the game. I would allow probably one defensive time out, a second if the DM wants to talk. If he came out I would tell him that pitching is an option. If he doesn't take the advice then it is what it is. Somebody will screw up, likely the pitcher will balk, or the OP happens.