Walk off OBS

[Haid D' Salaami]

Why in the hell is there 7 pages on this subject.. EVERYONE AGREES ITS OBS..

[BigSimonia]

I'm also of the opinion that DeMuth saw the OBS on his own and awarded Craig home because of that and was not merely mirroring Joyce's call.  If you look at the angle looking up the third base line, DeMuth is looking right at the play.  His only responsibility is the runner coming to the plate, so it makes sense that he is watching the entire play.

In the post game interview Joyce says (near the end of the interview) it was HIS call and DeMuth says it was Joyce's call and DeMuth says he was confirming (mirroring) Joyce.

[JaxRolo]

This thread is really boring now!!!

[BigSimonia]

 

 

 

 

This is why cops hate talking to witnesses after an accident.  Everyone saw the same thing and are telling different stories.

 

Some are saying DeMuth mirrored Joyce's call.  Others (including me) believe DeMuth called it on his own.

 

If Demuth made the obstruction call on his own, he would not of pointed to third base and yelled out to Jim Joyce. Demuth saw Joyce call it and reverberated it, both at the moment it occurred, and again, after he declared the runner safe.

 

I do believe the onus of the award of home plate was on Demuth.

 

When did he point to 3rd base and yell at Jim Joyce?

 

I believe what you saw was he pointed to the spot of the obstruction and called obstruction, then after he called the runner safe, he again pointed back to the spot of the obstruction and announced he had obstruction and was awarding the runner home.

 

I agree with others that his mechanics might have been a little screwy at the plate, but I'd also say he was probably pretty amped up at the fact he was ending a WS game on an obstruction call...so I think he can be forgiven.

 

When the initial call was made by Jim Joyce, it was echoed at home plate by Demuth. 

 

The overall is that Joyce called it, Demuth echoed it, and they were both on the same page in scoring the run.

 

No one can definitively say whether Demuth "echoed" Joyce's OBS call or called the OBS on his own, EXCEPT Demuth.  I don't remember what he said, or if he even addressed it in the post game press conference.  But until he does, it is just speculation for either side of the argument... but deep down we in the "called it on his own" camp know we are right 

 

He did! In the post game interview Joyce said it was his call, DeMuth said it was Joyce's call and DeMuth said he was acknowledging (mirroring)  Joyce's call when he pointed to third.  Also, DeMuth should have signaled "out" on the tag, called "time" and then Joyce could have made the award (or gotten together with the other umps to make the award) - but DeMuth has to bring the continuous action to an end (by making the out call on the play)

[BigSimonia]

This thread is really boring now!!!

And who exactly is forcing you to read it and continue to make comments?  My suggestion - if you're bored DON'T BOTHER READING OR COMMENTING.  Go find another thread - there is a great one on 2014 Cooperstown Week 13 ( )

[JaxRolo]

This thread is really boring now!!!

And who exactly is forcing you to read it and continue to make comments? My suggestion - if you're bored DON'T BOTHER READING OR COMMENTING. Go find another thread - there is a great one on 2014 Cooperstown Week 13 ( ) You all are forcing me to read it!! You all post something I have to read. I am here 24 hours a day!

[BigSimonia]

 

This thread is really boring now!!!

And who exactly is forcing you to read it and continue to make comments? My suggestion - if you're bored DON'T BOTHER READING OR COMMENTING. Go find another thread - there is a great one on 2014 Cooperstown Week 13 ( ) You all are forcing me to read it!! You all post something I have to read. I am here 24 hours a day!

 

I understand that feeling - especially with baseball winding down - you start jonesing and have to check in here more often to get your fix.   

[Texas Manny]

 

Demuth called the obstruction on his own. Both Joyce and Demuth called it at the same time. There was no.need for him to consult with Joyce before awarding the runner home.

I think DeMuth mirrored Joyce, he didn't  make the call initially - it was Joyce's call.  Since its type B obstruction, DeMuth has to let the play continue.  Craig is tagged at home plate.  What he should have done is rule on the tag (out), call time (at the end of continuous action) and then consulted with the umpire who made the call (Joyce) to determine what award is appropriate to nullify the obstruction.  That procedure would have lead to the same result in this case - but the result could be different in another case - if Craig had tripped on his own while running to home for example.  DeMuth has to wait until continuous action is complete - which means making a ruling on the result of the play - THEN you impose the penalty for obstruction

 

For further clarification concerning the discussion of Demuth should have called the runner "out", then consulted:

 

From the 2013 Major League Baseball Umpire Manual Rules Interpretations, Rule 7.06: Obstruction Mechanic, Type 2 (7.06(B)), pgs 43 & 44:

 

(2) The second type of obstruction (Official Baseball Rule 7.06(B)) deals with cases when the runner is obstructed while NO PLAY is being made on such runner. Examples of this type of obstruction include:

 

(1) Batter-runner is obstructed in rounding first base on a base hit while the ball is in the outfield.

(2) Batter-runner is obstructed before reaching first base on a base hit to the outfield.

(3) Runner from first steals second; catcher's throw is wild and goes into center field; runner is obstructed in attempting to advance to third base. Ball is loose in the outfield when obstruction occurs.

(4) Runner from second is obstructed while rounding third base on a hit to the outfield.

(5) Any other example where no play is being made directly on the runner at the moment he is obstructed.

 

 

Under this section of the obstruction rule, the obstruction is to be signaled by the umpire pointing laterally at the obstruction while calling loudly and clearly, "That's obstruction." The ball is not dead, however, and the umpire shall allow play to continue until all play has ceased and no further action is possible (see exception in NOTE (1) below). At that moment, the umpire shall call "Time" and impose such penalties, if any, that in the umpires judgment will nullify the act of obstruction. It is important to note that in cases occurring under this section of the obstruction rule, the umpire shall not call "Time" until all action has ceased and no further play is possible.

 

NOTE(1): If a runner is obstructed under this second section of the obstruction rule, play is to proceed to completion--even if it results in a play later being made on the runner who was previously obstructed. However, if such a play on a previously obstructed runner results in that runner actually being tagged out before reaching the base to which such runner would have been awarded because of the obstruction, the umpire shall in that case call "Time" at the moment the runner is tagged out. The umpire shall then impose such penalties that will nullify the obstruction, which will include, of course, the obstructed runner being awarded the base to which such runner would be entitled because of the obstruction.

 

(There are more notes that do not add anything further to this discussion on mechanics of Demuth at home)

 

(End of MLB section 7.06)

 

 

 

So Demuth, by the Interpretation Manual, NOTE(1), should not have called the tagged runner out. Instead, he should have called "Time", which verbally he may have done (inaudible on video) but didn't signal it overhead, then proceeded to signal "SAFE!", pointing down to the initial spot of obstruction and acknowledging Jim Joyce at 3rd base; then he pointed and scored the run, which he is entitled to do as in his judgment (and Joyce's) he would have scored had no obstruction occured. Demuth did everything prety much in line with the prescribed mechanics, albeit, the excitement of the WS and the moment, with such an important call, may have made him forget to raise his hands with calling of "Time". This is subjective on my part and is not to imply that is what actually occurred in his heart, or mind.

[johnnyg08]

Considering his position to see the play at the plate, it's an almost 100% certainty that he saw Joyce call the OBS, he also probably saw the OBS as well.

[dumbdumb]

Considering his position to see the play at the plate, it's an almost 100% certainty that he saw Joyce call the OBS, he also probably saw the OBS as well.

1. OK, so if JJ turns his head too quick and does not see the OBS, does DeMuth who clearly sees it, immediately call it. Also, in a 2 man, if the BU does not see it at 2nd and the PU does, does the PU immediately call it.

 

2. Who has the responsibility for the placement of the runner, when both see the OBS. Should just Jim Joyce make the placement decision. Should just DeMuth make the placement decision. Should they both get together first to decide, or like in the OP should DeMuth just go ahead and give the placement he has on the spot and not confer with Joyce at all.

 

I am not saying anything with the call was missed. I am only asking correct protocal when both see the OBS. When it is just 1 umpire who has (sees) the OBS, I would imagine only he can provide for the placement of the runner and must continue to monitor the progress of the runner who was originally obstructed even though he may have other duties with other runners on base.

[noumpere]

 

Considering his position to see the play at the plate, it's an almost 100% certainty that he saw Joyce call the OBS, he also probably saw the OBS as well.

1. OK, so if JJ turns his head too quick and does not see the OBS, does DeMuth who clearly sees it, immediately call it. Also, in a 2 man, if the BU does not see it at 2nd and the PU does, does the PU immediately call it.

 

2. Who has the responsibility for the placement of the runner, when both see the OBS. Should just Jim Joyce make the placement decision. Should just DeMuth make the placement decision. Should they both get together first to decide, or like in the OP should DeMuth just go ahead and give the placement he has on the spot and not confer with Joyce at all.

 

I am not saying anything with the call was missed. I am only asking correct protocal when both see the OBS. When it is just 1 umpire who has (sees) the OBS, I would imagine only he can provide for the placement of the runner and must continue to monitor the progress of the runner who was originally obstructed even though he may have other duties with other runners on base.

 

1.  Of course.  Any umpire can get this at any time.

 

2.  Get together.  In this play it was obvious and I'm sure there was some eye contact between the two confirming that.  Its much like the eye contact when theres a tag (or not) during a rundown between two umpires.  Thats goign to work probably75% or greater of the time.

[BRUMP]

Guys WGAF if it was 100% correct mechanics wise?? Only 1 person knows whether Demuth called it or echoed it and that person sure as hell isnt on this forum. Bottom line they got the call right and I doubt anyone would be 100% perfect with mechanics if they were about to end a WS game on an OBS call on a play at the plate!

[ricka56]

Guys WGAF if it was 100% correct mechanics wise?? Only 1 person knows whether Demuth called it or echoed it and that person sure as hell isnt on this forum. Bottom line they got the call right and I doubt anyone would be 100% perfect with mechanics if they were about to end a WS game on an OBS call on a play at the plate!

No one is calling for anyone's head when they say that the mechanics weren't technically correct. Some of us DGAF about what the correct mechanics should be, in case we were to find ourselves in a "similar" sitch...similar, play-wise, not similar WS-wise.

 

That said...it sure has been covered "ad upset-stomach-eum". I doubt anyone is going to change their wrong opinions...ha  

[Texas Manny]

Guys WGAF if it was 100% correct mechanics wise?? Only 1 person knows whether Demuth called it or echoed it and that person sure as hell isnt on this forum. Bottom line they got the call right and I doubt anyone would be 100% perfect with mechanics if they were about to end a WS game on an OBS call on a play at the plate!

The reason I give the fundamental mechanics is to help younger umpires develop good skill sets. Senior umpires can use the information to tweek their mechanics to refine them. My intent is never to force anyone to do anything, but to offer them the established principles of umpiring.

 

As to a specific MLB's Umpire style, I try to decifer only for discussion. I'm no way, in any position, to say what they did was "right" or "wrong". Just a discussion piece.

[ricka56]

[BRUMP]

didnt mean it to sound like idc about the correct mechanics i do.....i just think this thread has run its course

[mstaylor]

Not to carrying longer than it needs to be but I posted earlier what the sequence should have been. Did Demuth follow them exactly, no, but they got the call right. In two man, if both umpires see it then generally the PU does the award. If he is watching elsewhere and doesn't see it then certainly get together.