Walk off OBS

[kylejt]

Wait.

 

Why the "safe" mechanic? TIME needed to be called, at some point.

 

Why would the OBS at third take off the requirement to touch the plate?

 

Once the PU saw U3 call OBS, AND he determined that the runner could have scored the game winning run because of it, shouldn't the PU have called TIME, and point to the runner then the plate? I know it's type b, but it's the game ending run.

[Texas Manny]

Wait.

 

Why the "safe" mechanic? TIME needed to be called, at some point.

 

Why would the OBS at third take off the requirement to touch the plate?

 

Once the PU saw U3 call OBS, AND he determined that the runner could have scored the game winning run because of it, shouldn't the PU have called TIME, and point to the runner then the plate? I know it's type b, but it's the game ending run.

Demuth signalled "Safe!", then in conjunction pointed to third base indicating agreement with Umpire Jim Joyce's obstruction call, then he pointed at home plate and scored the run. Again, please refer to the post on Wendelstedt's Umpire Rules & Interpretations manual footnote. The runner would have, in the judgment of the umpire, touched the plate and scored. Demuth simply instituted what measures he felt would have negated the actions of the obstruction; hence the award of home plate; hence the automatic scoring of the run.

 

You allow the play at the plate to see what happens. If the runner is "safe" then the obstruction is negated, and treated as it never happened, provided, the umpire feels that's as far as the runner would get without the obstruction. Once Demuth saw that the runner was out, that is when he began the award process for the obstruction. With delayed obstruction, you have to let things work themselves out.

 

Everything was done according to the rule and its interpretation.

[kylejt]

What prevented the runner from touching the plate? Certainly not any action at third.

 

Now, it certainly prevented him from not being tagged out at the plate. That's a gimme.

 

I get when OBS prevents a touch of a base, but that's not the case here.

[Texas Manny]

What prevented the runner from touching the plate? Certainly not any action at third.

 

Now, it certainly prevented him from not being tagged out at the plate. That's a gimme.

 

I get when OBS prevents a touch of a base, but that's not the case here.

When you have the play last night, you have the obstruction, then the play at the plate. The umpire allows the play to procede until the point that he sees the runner would be out, which happened by the tag. He (Demuth) immediately calls time, although no hand signal given; gives the "Safe!" signal, then immediately points to third, acknowledging Jim Joyce's obstruction call, then he points to the plate and scores the run, by the footnotes given in the Wendelstedt Manual, because Demuth deemed that the runner would have scored had there been no obstruction and that it is understood that the runner would have touched the plate.

[BigSimonia]

I agree with everything the umpires did - great call.by Joyce

 

I have 2 questions:  1) who determines whether or not to impose the penalty? - Joyce made the call; DeMuth was closest to the outcome.  In other words, who determines whether Craig would have made it home "but for" the obstruction?  2) Shouldn't the correct mechanic have been to have DeMuth call Craig out on the tag, then call "Time" and then make the proper obstruction award of home plate?  Which gets me back to question 1 - what if Joyce determined that Craig would have been tagged out despite the obstruction and therefore the obstruction would be nullified?  Which is why I think DeMuth has to make a call as the play plays out, without regard to the obstruction call - which is determined AFTER the play has ended.

[umpstu]

I agree with everything the umpires did - great call.by Joyce

 

I have 2 questions:  1) who determines whether or not to impose the penalty? - Joyce made the call; DeMuth was closest to the outcome.  In other words, who determines whether Craig would have made it home "but for" the obstruction?  2) Shouldn't the correct mechanic have been to have DeMuth call Craig out on the tag, then call "Time" and then make the proper obstruction award of home plate?  Which gets me back to question 1 - what if Joyce determined that Craig would have been tagged out despite the obstruction and therefore the obstruction would be nullified?  Which is why I think DeMuth has to make a call as the play plays out, without regard to the obstruction call - which is determined AFTER the play has ended.

Joyce calls it, DeMuth enforces it. I think a lot of people are digging for boogers and playing the stump the ump game. Ha. I think I would have called time at the plate, pointed to where the obstruction occurred and then awarded Craig home plate and signaled that the run had scored. As a Cardinals fan I think they did the right thing. As an umpire, I think they did the BIG BALLS thing. That is just one of the things that separates the good umpires. On another note, my osso bucco smells great.

[kylejt]

I think you're mixing missed bases caused by OBS, with awarded bases missed. Two entirely different situations.

[Texas Manny]

I agree with everything the umpires did - great call.by Joyce

 

I have 2 questions:  1) who determines whether or not to impose the penalty? - Joyce made the call; DeMuth was closest to the outcome.  In other words, who determines whether Craig would have made it home "but for" the obstruction?  2) Shouldn't the correct mechanic have been to have DeMuth call Craig out on the tag, then call "Time" and then make the proper obstruction award of home plate?  Which gets me back to question 1 - what if Joyce determined that Craig would have been tagged out despite the obstruction and therefore the obstruction would be nullified?  Which is why I think DeMuth has to make a call as the play plays out, without regard to the obstruction call - which is determined AFTER the play has ended.

1) Sometimes multiple umpires will rule on the obstruction and they will work it out to negate the obstruction.

 

2) No out mechanic. That would present a double call and add confusion. Once the tag was applied, the proper school fundamental mechanic is: "Time!" (Hands raised), then pointing "That's obstruction! You! Score!", or, in this case, point to home plate and "That run scores!".  The excitement of the moment, and being in MLB, Demuth did what he thought was right: "Time!" "Safe!" "That's obstruction!" (pointing to Jim Joyce), "Score that run!" (pointing to home plate).

 

Back to 1): Obstruction rule requires one base beyond the last legally occupied. The runner legally acquired and occupied 3rd base. Since the runner made the attempt to go home, and the umpires ruled that he would have scored had there been no interference, you have to deal with a play being made immediately on an obstructed runner. That's where the umpire waits to see what happens, then if safe, obstruction is disregarded, or if tagged out, it's the "Time! That's obstruction! You, score!" "Score that run!"

[Texas Manny]

I think you're mixing missed bases caused by OBS, with awarded bases missed. Two entirely different situations.

No. You're not wrapping around your mind that the umpires have the authority to automatically award the base if they feel it negates the obstruction, and that they deemed the runner would have touched it had no obstruction occurred. It has nothing to do with missed bases caused by OBS v. Awarded Bases Missed. Your dealing with a play at the base the obstructed runner was trying to reach. The automatic touch applies in these situations if the umpire deems it. If there is a play anywhere up the line away from the base the obstructed runner is trying to reach, then when the umpire says: "Time! That's obstruction! You, blah, blah, blah!", the runner will then trot to his awarded base and touch it. No conflicts exist.

[basejester]

Back to 1): Obstruction rule requires one base beyond the last legally occupied. The runner legally acquired and occupied 3rd base. Since the runner made the attempt to go home, and the umpires ruled that he would have scored had there been no interference, you have to deal with a play being made immediately on an obstructed runner. That's where the umpire waits to see what happens, then if safe, obstruction is disregarded, or if tagged out, it's the "Time! That's obstruction! You, score!" "Score that run!"

This is Type B obstruction, so no, the rule does not require "one base beyond the last legally occupied".

[BigSimonia]

 

I agree with everything the umpires did - great call.by Joyce

 

I have 2 questions:  1) who determines whether or not to impose the penalty? - Joyce made the call; DeMuth was closest to the outcome.  In other words, who determines whether Craig would have made it home "but for" the obstruction?  2) Shouldn't the correct mechanic have been to have DeMuth call Craig out on the tag, then call "Time" and then make the proper obstruction award of home plate?  Which gets me back to question 1 - what if Joyce determined that Craig would have been tagged out despite the obstruction and therefore the obstruction would be nullified?  Which is why I think DeMuth has to make a call as the play plays out, without regard to the obstruction call - which is determined AFTER the play has ended.

1) Sometimes multiple umpires will rule on the obstruction and they will work it out to negate the obstruction.

 

2) No out mechanic. That would present a double call and add confusion. Once the tag was applied, the proper school fundamental mechanic is: "Time!" (Hands raised), then pointing "That's obstruction! You! Score!", or, in this case, point to home plate and "That run scores!".  The excitement of the moment, and being in MLB, Demuth did what he thought was right: "Time!" "Safe!" "That's obstruction!" (pointing to Jim Joyce), "Score that run!" (pointing to home plate).

 

Back to 1): Obstruction rule requires one base beyond the last legally occupied. The runner legally acquired and occupied 3rd base. Since the runner made the attempt to go home, and the umpires ruled that he would have scored had there been no interference, you have to deal with a play being made immediately on an obstructed runner. That's where the umpire waits to see what happens, then if safe, obstruction is disregarded, or if tagged out, it's the "Time! That's obstruction! You, score!" "Score that run!"

 

I don't think that's correct for Type B obstruction.  Ump has to determone what base would have been acquired if not for the obstruction and make that award.  If, for example, Joyce determined (or DeMuth, if its his call -which I'm still not convinced it is) that Craig would not have scored despite the obstruction, Craig could still be called out on the tag at the plate

[kylejt]

 

......, the runner will then trot to his awarded base and touch it.

 

But what if he doesn't touch it. (that's what I'm getting at).

 

When the ball was coming in to the catcher, DeMuth should have called TIME, and awarded the plate to the runner. That didn't happen. The award should have, IMO, been made by the PU, who had the best angle on the OBS, the ball, and the defender down the line. Instead, he called SAFE. A SAFE call, to me, implies he touched the plate, which he may, or may not have done.

 

Hey, it's just a little thing, that us umpire geeks would notice.

 

Oh, and hats off to Joyce for calling OBS by pointing with his left hand.

 

But once that ball started toward the plate, the PU needs to kill it.

[Texas Manny]

 

 

I agree with everything the umpires did - great call.by Joyce

 

I have 2 questions:  1) who determines whether or not to impose the penalty? - Joyce made the call; DeMuth was closest to the outcome.  In other words, who determines whether Craig would have made it home "but for" the obstruction?  2) Shouldn't the correct mechanic have been to have DeMuth call Craig out on the tag, then call "Time" and then make the proper obstruction award of home plate?  Which gets me back to question 1 - what if Joyce determined that Craig would have been tagged out despite the obstruction and therefore the obstruction would be nullified?  Which is why I think DeMuth has to make a call as the play plays out, without regard to the obstruction call - which is determined AFTER the play has ended.

1) Sometimes multiple umpires will rule on the obstruction and they will work it out to negate the obstruction.

 

2) No out mechanic. That would present a double call and add confusion. Once the tag was applied, the proper school fundamental mechanic is: "Time!" (Hands raised), then pointing "That's obstruction! You! Score!", or, in this case, point to home plate and "That run scores!".  The excitement of the moment, and being in MLB, Demuth did what he thought was right: "Time!" "Safe!" "That's obstruction!" (pointing to Jim Joyce), "Score that run!" (pointing to home plate).

 

Back to 1): Obstruction rule requires one base beyond the last legally occupied. The runner legally acquired and occupied 3rd base. Since the runner made the attempt to go home, and the umpires ruled that he would have scored had there been no interference, you have to deal with a play being made immediately on an obstructed runner. That's where the umpire waits to see what happens, then if safe, obstruction is disregarded, or if tagged out, it's the "Time! That's obstruction! You, score!" "Score that run!"

 

I don't think that's correct for Type B obstruction.  Ump has to determone what base would have been acquired if not for the obstruction and make that award.  If, for example, Joyce determined (or DeMuth, if its his call -which I'm still not convinced it is) that Craig would not have scored despite the obstruction, Craig could still be called out on the tag at the plate

 

That's the point. They (Demuth and Joyce) both determined that the run would have scored had no obstruction occurred. The runner legally acquired 3rd base, and was advancing towards home, when the obstruction occurred. That is when the one base beyond the last legally occupied comes into play, so the obstruction prevented him from scoring, hence he is awarded home (one base beyond that which he legally occupied.)

 

Had Joyce and Demuth determined that the runner would not of scored, regardless of the obstruction, then the runner is on his own, and liable to be put out.

 

 

......, the runner will then trot to his awarded base and touch it.

 

But what if he doesn't touch it. (that's what I'm getting at).

 

When the ball was coming in to the catcher, DeMuth should have called TIME, and awarded the plate to the runner. That didn't happen. The award should have, IMO, been made by the PU, who had the best angle on the OBS, the ball, and the defender down the line. Instead, he called SAFE. A SAFE call, to me, implies he touched the plate, which he may, or may not have done.

 

Hey, it's just a little thing, that us umpire geeks would notice.

 

Oh, and hats off to Joyce for calling OBS by pointing with his left hand.

 

But once that ball started toward the plate, the PU needs to kill it.

 

The runner doesn't have to touch it because the umpire awarded him home plate by deeming he would have touched it had no obstruction occurred. This deeming relieves the runner of having to physically go back and touch it because, in the umpire's judgment, giving it to the runner negates the obstruction. The umpire scored the run. There can be no appeal for not touching home plate.

[Rich Ives]

 

 

......, the runner will then trot to his awarded base and touch it.

 

But what if he doesn't touch it. (that's what I'm getting at).

 

When the ball was coming in to the catcher, DeMuth should have called TIME, and awarded the plate to the runner. That didn't happen. The award should have, IMO, been made by the PU, who had the best angle on the OBS, the ball, and the defender down the line. Instead, he called SAFE. A SAFE call, to me, implies he touched the plate, which he may, or may not have done.

 

Hey, it's just a little thing, that us umpire geeks would notice.

 

Oh, and hats off to Joyce for calling OBS by pointing with his left hand.

 

But once that ball started toward the plate, the PU needs to kill it.

 

 

 

Kyle - it was type b. It happened while the ball was loose in the outfield. The play continues. The ruling could have been that the obstruction did NOT affect the advance if he was out by a significant amount. Ask Tejada.

 

AND

7.06(b ) The umpire shall then call “Time†and impose such penalties, if any, as in his judgment will nullify the act of obstruction. 

 

It's a God rule - the umpire can do whatever he wants to nullify the obstruction.

[ricka56]

This was type 'B' obstruction, who decides the award (if one is to be given) ? The umpire making the obstruction call, or the umpire at the tail end of the play(s)?  

[ohlradio]

In regards to DeMuth's mechanics, I would read it that once a play was being made on the obstructed runner (Craig at the plate) DeMuth should have killed the play and awarded Craig home. I take that as 7.06a (comment) "When a play is being made on an obstructed runner, the umpire shall signal obstruction in the same manner that he calls “Time,..."

 

Correct?

[Concernedcitizen2]

Yeah, it seems like DeMuth just ruled "Safe" without a "time" signal, which probably lead to some of the confusion on the field.  I think it would be better to do "out" then "time" then point to Joyce then point to the runner and point to the plate emphatically.  But again, I essentially have no umpiring experience (nothing I've been paid for)

 

Just a question, why is the obstruction supposed to be pointed with the left hand?

[Texas Manny]

Yeah, it seems like DeMuth just ruled "Safe" without a "time" signal, which probably lead to some of the confusion on the field.  I think it would be better to do "out" then "time" then point to Joyce then point to the runner and point to the plate emphatically.  But again, I essentially have no umpiring experience (nothing I've been paid for)

 

Just a question, why is the obstruction supposed to be pointed with the left hand?

Per JE and HW, obstruction is called with the right hand. In fact, the only left hand signal given is on a check swing appeal, so as not to confuse the request with a strike call of the right hand, and obvious "foul" pointing on the baselines depending on your umpire position.

[afaber12]

 

 

......, the runner will then trot to his awarded base and touch it.

 

But what if he doesn't touch it. (that's what I'm getting at).

 

When the ball was coming in to the catcher, DeMuth should have called TIME, and awarded the plate to the runner. That didn't happen. The award should have, IMO, been made by the PU, who had the best angle on the OBS, the ball, and the defender down the line. Instead, he called SAFE. A SAFE call, to me, implies he touched the plate, which he may, or may not have done.

 

Hey, it's just a little thing, that us umpire geeks would notice.

 

Oh, and hats off to Joyce for calling OBS by pointing with his left hand.

 

But once that ball started toward the plate, the PU needs to kill it.

 

 

Perhaps "Time" should have been called first in an ideal world. That the play resulted in the game-winning run scoring means that the call of "Time" is not as necessary as it otherwise would be. So lets pretend that it wasn't the bottom of the ninth, but otherwise the same situation. Without the obstruction call, the play would have resulted in the third out in the inning, making no further action possible. (Yes, there's the possibility of a 'fourth out', but extremely unlikely seeing as no runs would have scored on the play.) Per 7.06(b), call "Time", award the base, the runner may or may not make a point of touching the plate just to make sure, and you continue with the game.

 

Whether textbook correct or not, I don't have a problem with the Safe-Obstruction-Score mechanic used. In my mind at least, its the similar to using Safe-Off The Base. Give the safe/out call, then explain why. (I only noticed this morning - its 10:40am here as I'm writing - that DeMuth also called the Obstruction just about in perfect sync with Joyce, negating the need for any sort of conference on whether the runner would have scored or not.)

 

You can't kill it when the ball is heading towards the plate. Like they said in the umpire's press conference, if the runner had been out by 20 feet, or tripped over himself half-way down the line, or just stopped running thinking he'd already been awarded home, then potentially he'd be called out. The runner may have started for home, seen the throw and retreated back to third. The throw could have been cutoff and play made on the batter-runner, with the runner far enough away from the plate to not score the run. There are all sorts of possibilities that have the potential to change the result of the play, particularly whether the game-winning run scores. That's why you have to wait for the play to finish before making any awards.

[gnhbua93]

Can somebody send via DHL a pack of gum to Tim He-who-shall-not-be-named, please.  His commentary about the OBS rule was really stupid.

[Maineac]

 

It will be a credit to the Sox Organization if they all come out and just start talking about another tough situation to be in and that the play was called correctly by the umpires (just like the one at 2nd base was called correctly in the end on the opening game) and it is just one of those things, and you got to keep on going and look to the next game.

Here it is: http://nypost.com/2013/10/27/boston-manager-umpires-were-right-rule-is-bad/

[Haid D' Salaami]

 

As the play goes - great call by Joyce.

What if Middlebrooks tries to get up to chase after the ball and they tangle? Do we still have obstruction or is Middlebrooks in the act of playing the ball?

It happens at 1B a lot, but that is going back into the bag, is this any different - by rule?

 

Just a question - Thanks

That's obstruction.

OBSTRUCTION is the act of a fielder who, while not in possession of the ball and

not in the act of fielding the ball, impedes the progress of any runner.

Rule 2.00 (Obstruction) Comment: If a fielder is about to receive a thrown ball and if the ball is in

flight directly toward and near enough to the fielder so he must occupy his position to receive the ball he

may be considered “in the act of fielding a ball.†It is entirely up to the judgment of the umpire as to

whether a fielder is in the act of fielding a ball. After a fielder has made an attempt to field a ball and

missed, he can no longer be in the “act of fielding†the ball. For example: an infielder dives at a ground ball and the ball passes him and he continues to lie on the ground and delays the progress of the runner, he very likely has obstructed the runner.

 

Im glad someone copi9ed and pasted the rule.. I had no idea what it said.

[Haid D' Salaami]

 

 

 

......, the runner will then trot to his awarded base and touch it.

 

But what if he doesn't touch it. (that's what I'm getting at).

 

When the ball was coming in to the catcher, DeMuth should have called TIME, and awarded the plate to the runner. That didn't happen. The award should have, IMO, been made by the PU, who had the best angle on the OBS, the ball, and the defender down the line. Instead, he called SAFE. A SAFE call, to me, implies he touched the plate, which he may, or may not have done.

 

Hey, it's just a little thing, that us umpire geeks would notice.

 

Oh, and hats off to Joyce for calling OBS by pointing with his left hand.

 

But once that ball started toward the plate, the PU needs to kill it.

 

 

Perhaps "Time" should have been called first in an ideal world. That the play resulted in the game-winning run scoring means that the call of "Time" is not as necessary as it otherwise would be. So lets pretend that it wasn't the bottom of the ninth, but otherwise the same situation. Without the obstruction call, the play would have resulted in the third out in the inning, making no further action possible. (Yes, there's the possibility of a 'fourth out', but extremely unlikely seeing as no runs would have scored on the play.) Per 7.06(b), call "Time", award the base, the runner may or may not make a point of touching the plate just to make sure, and you continue with the game.

 

Whether textbook correct or not, I don't have a problem with the Safe-Obstruction-Score mechanic used. In my mind at least, its the similar to using Safe-Off The Base. Give the safe/out call, then explain why. (I only noticed this morning - its 10:40am here as I'm writing - that DeMuth also called the Obstruction just about in perfect sync with Joyce, negating the need for any sort of conference on whether the runner would have scored or not.)

 

You can't kill it when the ball is heading towards the plate. Like they said in the umpire's press conference, if the runner had been out by 20 feet, or tripped over himself half-way down the line, or just stopped running thinking he'd already been awarded home, then potentially he'd be called out. The runner may have started for home, seen the throw and retreated back to third. The throw could have been cutoff and play made on the batter-runner, with the runner far enough away from the plate to not score the run. There are all sorts of possibilities that have the potential to change the result of the play, particularly whether the game-winning run scores. That's why you have to wait for the play to finish before making any awards.

 

1st off you cant kill it cause it was type b OBs... not type a...

[Haid D' Salaami]

In regards to DeMuth's mechanics, I would read it that once a play was being made on the obstructed runner (Craig at the plate) DeMuth should have killed the play and awarded Craig home. I take that as 7.06a (comment) "When a play is being made on an obstructed runner, the umpire shall signal obstruction in the same manner that he calls “Time,..."

 

Correct?

No, this is the other type of OBS.. there was no play being made on the runner.. the ball rolled 50 feet away when OBS occurred. therefore type b comes into play.

[Jimurray]

Let's say that DeMuth did not see the obstruction or Joyce's signal. In that case he would have signaled the out and then Joyce would have come in and awarded HP on the obstruction and more than likely the runner would have touched HP.

Let's say that DeMuth called and did not mirror (actually, i don't think there is a mechanic to mirror an obstruction call. Normally one guy has responsibilty and calls it.) the obstruction and Joyce also called it. DeMuth should have called "time" and awarded HP. He did not do that so his safe mechanic should protect the runner from being called out for not touching.