R3 Scores Then Returns to 3B

[Mudder]

16 Yr Old Rec Ball, I'm BU in C, Bases loaded, 1 Out.  Swinging strike 3 is in the dirt, BR takes off to 1B, PU yells " Batter's Out, Batter's Out"  F2 throws to 1B anyway.  R3 sees this and runs home. BR gets almost to 1B and realizes he's out and stops running.

 

I turn and see R3 jogging back to 3B, the defense does not try to throw to get him.  He gets back to 3B safely.  3B coach tells PU R3 reached and touched the plate and that we should score his run.

 

PU approaches and asks if I saw R3 touch home plate, I say no I was watching the throw to 1B from F2, PU says he was too and did not notice if R3 reached HP.  I ask him him why was he watching the play at 1B when he has R3 on his way home? I say whats it matter anyway, he returned to 3B, and should stay there.

 

 Anyway He ruled the runner touched home plate and brought R3 home and scored the run.

 

Should he have scored the run?  If R3 had touched the plate, then returned to 3B should he not have stayed at 3B?, you can run the bases in reverse order, but does that include HP?

[grayhawk]

He legally scored (assuming he touched or passed home). He can't unscore. Send him to the dugout and count the run.

[Rich Ives]

And the rule for that:

 

Rule 5.06 Comment: A run legally scored cannot be nullified by subsequent action of the
runner, such as but not limited to an effort to return to third base in the belief that he had left the base
before a caught fly ball.

[umpire_scott]

Wow.  It's hard to believe that a PU could miss the runner actually touching home plate.  To me if he got to home plate AND I didn't see him miss it then I'm counting the run.  The PU had to at least see whether he got to the area of home plate.  At that point it's whether I saw him miss it not whether I saw him touch it.  And I'm certainly not asking the BU if he saw it.  What is the likelihood that both umpires were blatantly failing to do their job?  

[mstaylor]

If you don't see the miss, then there isn't a miss. Miss or not, he can't unscore and return to third. <br /><br />Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2<br /><br />

[JaxRolo]

It is not surprising to me that PU missed the touch.

 

I help new umpires during scrimmages and other games. It boggles my little brain how many times I see Umpires not watching for touches not just at home but other bases as well.

 

I think its due to a naturual reaction to want to see where the ball is all the time.

[umpire_scott]

It is not surprising to me that PU missed the touch.

 

I help new umpires during scrimmages and other games. It boggles my little brain how many times I see Umpires not watching for touches not just at home but other bases as well.

 

I think its due to a naturual reaction to want to see where the ball is all the time.

 

I agree that PU's miss "misses" all the time.  In this case though to me all the PU had to ascertain was whether there was an attempt to touch home.  It's almost like he didn't even know the runner attempted to come home if he was going to his partner for help.

[zoops]

Is this rule only for home plate?  I think I've seen where a runner who started on first touches 2nd and then heads back to first thinking that a fly ball was caught when it actually wasn't, and the defense throws to 2nd for the force out.  

[maven]

Is this rule only for home plate?  I think I've seen where a runner who started on first touches 2nd and then heads back to first thinking that a fly ball was caught when it actually wasn't, and the defense throws to 2nd for the force out.

 

Yes. The idea is that once he legally touches HP his trip around the bases is complete and he cannot resume running the bases — until his next plate appearance.

 

Notice that the rule specifies a "run legally scored," so if there is a baserunning error he needs to correct (missed base, retouch), this provision would not prevent a runner from doing so.

[UmpJM]

zoops,

 

As maven says, this rule is only for home plate.

 

There is a different rule for the other bases.

 

JM

[maineump]

I don't understand why PU was watching the throw to first, as he already called the out. He needs to back up and look to see what else is happening. There is no need to watch for runners lane violations, because he wasn't a legal runner.

BU can watch throw, but needs to be aware of the other runners.

The plate guy NEEDS to watch all touches and tag-ups at third base. We have the problem of too many guys thinking that they just need to call balls/strikes and forget about the rest of the field.

[bam]

I don't understand why PU was watching the throw to first, as he already called the out. He needs to back up and look to see what else is happening. There is no need to watch for runners lane violations, because he wasn't a legal runner.

BU can watch throw, but needs to be aware of the other runners.

The plate guy NEEDS to watch all touches and tag-ups at third base. We have the problem of too many guys thinking that they just need to call balls/strikes and forget about the rest of the field.

Given the circumstances, I can see PU following the BR and announcing that he's out.  The "following" is the problem.  R3 could sneak in behind.   

[stl_ump]

 

Rec ball.. Newish umps?  They / we are not all Pros like you guys.

[bam]

 

 

Rec ball.. Newish umps?  They / we are not all Pros like you guys.

 

I don't know where that quote came from, but, frankly, that's the attitude that's been keeping me off this forum lately.  Little League and High School umps opining about MLB guys lack of hustle/awareness/rules knowledge/etc. rubs me the wrong way.

[BigUmp56]

Why should we not dissect the MLB umpires weaknesses in order to improve ourselves? I don't believe for one second that they're beyond reproach.

Tim

[JaxRolo]

Personally it makes me feel good to see someone making $300k - $500k making a mistake.

 

Shows their are just human,

 

I make $50

[johnnyg08]

Nobody is beyond reproach. That's how we all get better.

[mstaylor]

 

 

 

Rec ball.. Newish umps?  They / we are not all Pros like you guys.

 

I don't know where that quote came from, but, frankly, that's the attitude that's been keeping me off this forum lately.  Little League and High School umps opining about MLB guys lack of hustle/awareness/rules knowledge/etc. rubs me the wrong way.

 

I agree that watching what pros do can help us get better. Sometimes it's simply a matter of never do this, but other times it is watching what they do and the mistakes they make to help us in our games. To be honest Bam, many youth umpires are much better rules guys than pros because we see more weird crap. The pros don't usually do the dumb stuff we see and then when they do the umpires are surprised and many times screw the ruling.