No foul line past the base...

[LMSANS]

This happened to a friend and I am interested in your opinion...

 

It's a wood bat summer league, 20-somethings, college & former pro & college players, usually decent ball.  OBR rules usually, there are no lines on the field.  

Pre-game is PU has fair/foul all the way due to the lack of a line & foul pole.

 

Lead off batter, sinking liner to RF, close to the line.  Definitely a trouble ball.  BU turns to observe the catch, PU moves out to take the runner around.  Catch is made, no fair/foul signal, it was about a foot or less fair....

PU, after 3 outs, tells BU "We screwed up.  You should have covered fair/foul."  

BU: "I can't do F/F.  There's no line."  

PU: "You turned your back so I have the BR.  How can I cover F/F?"

 

As I said, one of the umpires is my friend and he told me the story.  Then I worked a football clinic with the other guy who was dying to tell somebody his story.

 

Who has trouble catch?

Who has BR to 2B (or further)?

Who has Fair/Foul?

 

 

 

[BigUmp56]

Well, what was covered in the pre-game is what should have happened during the game. If the BU understood that the PU would take both lines all the way, he shouldn't have gone out. I've never changed mechanics because the lines were missing or just terribly made. Under normal circumstances the PU has the left field line all the way and the BU from "A" has the right field line from the bag to the fence, including the bag. And if a ball is close enough to the right field line that it's not certain whether it will be fair or foul, then by definition that's a trouble ball, which has the BU going out. I guess the bottom line is to stick with what was discussed during the pre-game if you're not going to follow standard mechanics.

 

Tim.

[umpire_scott]

In the case of this as the BU I would have gone to the infield and let the PU take the F/F call and the trouble ball.  Obviously it should have been pregamed what to do if it was F/F AND "trouble".  But under the circumstances I think the PU has a better chance of making a correct "catch/no catch" on that play than the BU has of determining "fair/foul" with no line or pole.

[maven]

Here's what should have happened, given that BU "turned his back":

 

PU: "Bill, I've got that ball, take the runner, take the runner!"

[soapbox]

We have that a lot.  I think the PU has to take care of F/F.  BU goes out on the trouble ball and PU extends to make the call if need be.  I think there is plenty of time to make that call and still see touch at 1B and then get in a position to make a call at 2B if necessary.

[Dragon29]

Here's what should have happened, given that BU "turned his back":

 

PU: "Bill, I've got that ball, take the runner, take the runner!"

This . . . or, once PU ses that BU has turned his back, his other option is to take the runner and yell, "Bill - I've got the runner!"

 

Either way would work; I think it might depend on whether or not the BU could turn back into the play quickly enough to take the runner, as was pre-gamed. BU should have communicated his intention regardless.

[BigUmp56]

Pre-game is PU has fair/foul all the way due to the lack of a line & foul pole.

 

 

 

This is what started the entire mess. I don't see a valid excuse to throw mechanics that you're accustomed to out the window based on field conditions. I know that for myself, coverages are almost instinctual. It would be difficult for me to see a trouble ball go over my head while in "A", and not go out on the ball. That said, Maven is absolutely right that solid communication can turn a potentially bad situation away from the dark side....

 

Tim.

[pnewton]

 

 

I don't see a valid excuse to throw mechanics that you're accustomed to out the window based on field conditions. 

 

 

 

I agree that I don't like to change mechanics so I am asking how is BU supposed to rule on fair/foul with nothing to go on without a line to go by?  PU at least can make a line in his vision using the plate and first base to get a sense of what is fair and foul.

 

For summer ball in my area this is a common issue (no line on the field) and we always have PU take that line.

[HeadHunterLA]

I don't think I worked a field this year with foul lines past the bases.

[noumpere]

Theres always something you can use to line it up with as long as you look before the game to find it.  A tree farther out or the window of a building, or a line from the lawn mower ect.  Keep the mechanics the same and if they want to complain tell them to paint the lines (well maybe address that last part to the league after the game)

[johnnyg08]

When there's no line, we don't change our mechanics if there's a foul pole. 

 

It's not our problem that there's not chalk all the way down.  

 

Teams also aren't going to do much arguing over fail/foul if there aren't lines.

[Kevin_K]

I had that same play two nights ago in a simlar league. Are you guys secretly watching me?

 

I was PU and as I made my way up the line I saw my partner's back. I held the line to about the 45' line and recognzed that the ball would certainly be fair. Then I angled toward 2B to cover any potential play if the ball had not been caught.

 

We certainly discussed F/F in pregame, but I had to make an adjustment mid-play. There would be no way my partner would have been able to get in on a play at 2B. As I see it in hindsight, our first responsibility is to determine catch/no catch or safe/out. I recognize that fair/foul is nearly as important, but in this case, a sh*&tstorm would have erupted had there been a real whacker at 2B and neither of us were there to make a call.

 

Fire away!

[LMSANS]

When there's no line, we don't change our mechanics if there's a foul pole. 

 

It's not our problem that there's not chalk all the way down.  

 

Teams also aren't going to do much arguing over fail/foul if there aren't lines.

No foul pole either.

[maven]

Theres always something you can use to line it up with as long as you look before the game to find it.  A tree farther out or the window of a building, or a line from the lawn mower ect.  Keep the mechanics the same and if they want to complain tell them to paint the lines (well maybe address that last part to the league after the game)

 

I think this is good advice for higher levels and more experienced umpires. Newer guys are likely to get eaten alive defending a call this way.

[johnnyg08]

 

When there's no line, we don't change our mechanics if there's a foul pole. 

 

It's not our problem that there's not chalk all the way down.  

 

Teams also aren't going to do much arguing over fail/foul if there aren't lines.

No foul pole either.

 

 

 

Then just pregame how you're going to cover it.  If anybody argues, tell them to paint a line next time.

 

Either way it is a best guess.  From teams who don't know umpire mechanics, they'd probably like to see the base umpire go out and make the fair/foul decision.  It will appear more credible to most fans/teams.

[noumpere]

 

Theres always something you can use to line it up with as long as you look before the game to find it.  A tree farther out or the window of a building, or a line from the lawn mower ect.  Keep the mechanics the same and if they want to complain tell them to paint the lines (well maybe address that last part to the league after the game)

 

I think this is good advice for higher levels and more experienced umpires. Newer guys are likely to get eaten alive defending a call this way.

 

Maybe but its how I taught it to teenagers learning to umpire for the first time.  It was hard enough to get them to do the right mechanics much less change them based on whether the park district had decided to send out the paint sprayer that week..

[Stan W.]

I don't think I worked a field this year with foul lines past the bases.

 

Im in the same boat..........in my summer ball, some of my fields are just better than cow pastures, or high school fields that get no attention in the summer besides cutting the grass............ this falls under the heading of sometimes you just got to umpire.......and unfortunately it happens to me too often in summer ball.......

[Minnz]

 

 I don't see a valid excuse to throw mechanics that you're accustomed to out the window based on field conditions..

 

 

There is one small argument I have with your statement there.  Many places with no lines the standard mechanic is for BU to have all lines all the time. You can't just say because you always have PU take bag to line even with no line.  

[BigUmp56]

 

 

 I don't see a valid excuse to throw mechanics that you're accustomed to out the window based on field conditions..

 

 

There is one small argument I have with your statement there.  Many places with no lines the standard mechanic is for BU to have all lines all the time. You can't just say because you always have PU take bag to line even with no line.  

 

 

 

For the sake of discussion, please tell me how the BU from "A" can ever take the third baseline? Even from "B" it would be incredibly difficult for the BU to accurately call the line from the bag to the fence on the third base side, especially without a chalked line.

 

 

For ALL standard mechanics for the two man system, the PU has all of the third baseline, and from the plate to the bag on the first baseline.

 

Tim.

[HeadHunterLA]

For the life of me I don't know why you would even think about changing mechanics because that damn white line doesn't go past the bases?  How many times in a game is it actually going to come into play?  Pre-game it and umpire..Cheers.

[umpire_scott]

For the life of me I don't know why you would even think about changing mechanics because that damn white line doesn't go past the bases?  How many times in a game is it actually going to come into play?  Pre-game it and umpire..Cheers.

 

In my experience it is a pretty standard deviation to have PU take the first base line all the way if there are no lines from the bag to the fence. 

[HeadHunterLA]

 

For the life of me I don't know why you would even think about changing mechanics because that damn white line doesn't go past the bases?  How many times in a game is it actually going to come into play?  Pre-game it and umpire..Cheers.

 

In my experience it is a pretty standard deviation to have PU take the first base line all the way if there are no lines from the bag to the fence. 

 

Well then we have had much different experiences, but whatever works.

[Minnz]

 

 

For the life of me I don't know why you would even think about changing mechanics because that damn white line doesn't go past the bases?  How many times in a game is it actually going to come into play?  Pre-game it and umpire..Cheers.

 

In my experience it is a pretty standard deviation to have PU take the first base line all the way if there are no lines from the bag to the fence. 

 

Well then we have had much different experiences, but whatever works.

 

So if there is no line from bag to right field fence how can the BU have a better view than PU?  PU has a line to stand on an see while PU has nothing to guide by.  If there are no lines you are going to be lucky to have a foul pole line on the fence even.  PU coming up the line as best he can while BU takes the infield seems the best practice to me.

[BigUmp56]

It's going to be a sacrifice either way, regardless of who takes the trouble ball to right field. The PU "may" have a better view of the invisible line on the fair/foul call. But remember that the next priority is going to be catch/no catch. The BU will have a much better look at a potential trap or bobble then the PU will. To me, I think having the BU take it is the lesser of two evils.

Tim.

[umpire_scott]

It's going to be a sacrifice either way, regardless of who takes the trouble ball to right field. The PU "may" have a better view of the invisible line on the fair/foul call. But remember that the next priority is going to be catch/no catch. The BU will have a much better look at a potential trap or bobble then the PU will. To me, I think having the BU take it is the lesser of two evils.

Tim.

 

This is just a difference of opinion.  I think that of the 4 "looks" I think by far the worst one is the BU's look at fair/foul.  I think that the best way to get a decent look at both is for PU taking it.  

 

On another note I worked a game last night where there was no outfield foul line, but there was a foul pole.  My partner had the dish and he stated during the pregame that he would take both lines.  I said that without a foul line in the outfield I agreed.  He said he thinks it's stupid to do something different down the first base line than the third base line and thus make the PU come out to cover the bases.