Overthrown ball at third base

[Guest Rob]

Runner going towards third base. Not a forced play. Throw coming in from center field is missed by the third baseman and heads towards the left side dugout. Ball hits a fence post right at the entrance to the dugout, rebounds at an angle such to hit a ball bucket sitting right at the entrance to the dugout. Ball deflects back into foul play area. Catcher backs up the play and picks up the ball. Time was called.

 

I ruled thus the ball did not go out of play and the runner at third stays at third. If the ball did proceed into the dugout that of course would be a overthrown ball - and the R3 runner would be awarded home. I determined that the ball bucket was considered part of normal baseball equipment.

 

Comments please.

[guyinaredhat]

Well first of all preventative umpiring will make sure that buckets not there.  

But in the event it does happen I would really have to consider the circumstances.  If it's dt teams dugout and the buckets there I would call time  and award bases. No way the defense gets an advantage because they left a bucket out there when they shouldn't have.  

If it's the offensive teams dugout, then I would treat it as part of the playing field.  THe offense should have  known better.

[alex7]

NCAA rules, your call is correct.  Equipment left out is live.  

NFHS doesn't cover it, so you either see it as nothing, or pull rank and award bases on what would have happened had that bucket not been there while sternly reminding that team to keep equipment out of live-ball territory.  

[BigUmp56]

I think I'd have a hard time ruling that the ball could have, should have, would have gone out of play absent the bucket being left out of the dugout. It's a bitter pill to swallow, but I'd have to eat this one for allowing it to remain in play.

 

YMMV

 

Tim.

[JaxRolo]

Having a bucket on the field gives you the right to make up any rules you want regarding the play. Make something up and stick with it. Do not reward the defense.

[noumpere]

NCAA rules, your call is correct.  Equipment left out is live.  

NFHS doesn't cover it, so you either see it as nothing, or pull rank and award bases on what would have happened had that bucket not been there while sternly reminding that team to keep equipment out of live-ball territory.  

NFHS does cover it (well if we treat it as loose equipment) in Rule 1.3.7 Penalty.  There are also two cases that deal with the ball hitting a shinguard or extra helmets.

 

I agree with the redhatguy who said "if you cant tell whether the ball would have gone in the dugout, then penalise whichever team had the bucket out."

[LMSANS]

Is the bucket behind the fence line,definitely dead ball.  If it's over the line or completely in LBT, then I go with @ guyinaredhat

[maven]

Don't let buckets on the field. Problem never arises.

[Mudder]

Don't let buckets on the field. Problem never arises.

 

I agree totally, but the reality is every team does it and every umpire in all the associations I work in allow it, and its an accepted practice anywhere you go.   I just make sure the buckets are kept in front of the dugout entrance.

[mrumpiresir]

 

Don't let buckets on the field. Problem never arises.

 

I agree totally, but the reality is every team does it and every umpire in all the associations I work in allow it, and its an accepted practice anywhere you go.   I just make sure the buckets are kept in front of the dugout entrance.

 

It may be accepted practice anywhere you go but that's bad game management.  Do your job and keep equipment out of live territory.

[blue23ll]

There are no buckets on the field for FED games, period. You shouldn't allow them either. Do you allow people to wander outside the dugouts, too?

[Mudder]

 

 

Don't let buckets on the field. Problem never arises.

 

I agree totally, but the reality is every team does it and every umpire in all the associations I work in allow it, and its an accepted practice anywhere you go.   I just make sure the buckets are kept in front of the dugout entrance.

 

It may be accepted practice anywhere you go but that's bad game management.  Do your job and keep equipment out of live territory.

 

 

So when everyone tells you to allow it, including those above you, you're supposed to fight the battle on this?  No, I'd rather pick my battles.

[mrumpiresir]

 

 

 

Don't let buckets on the field. Problem never arises.

 

I agree totally, but the reality is every team does it and every umpire in all the associations I work in allow it, and its an accepted practice anywhere you go.   I just make sure the buckets are kept in front of the dugout entrance.

 

It may be accepted practice anywhere you go but that's bad game management.  Do your job and keep equipment out of live territory.

 

 

So when everyone tells you to allow it, including those above you, you're supposed to fight the battle on this?  No, I'd rather pick my battles.

 

I don't know where you are, but I've umpired in four different states and nowhere I've been allows buckets on the field.  Maybe you should find a better association, you know, one that abides by the rules.

[BigUmp56]

 

 

 

 

So when everyone tells you to allow it, including those above you, you're supposed to fight the battle on this?  No, I'd rather pick my battles.

 

 

 

I'd tell everyone else that you prefer to enforce the rules of the game....

 

3.14

 

 

Members of the offensive team shall carry all gloves and other equipment off the field and to the dugout while their team is at bat. No equipment shall be left lying on the field, either in fair or foul territory.

[Mudder]

Ok fellas you've made yourselves clear, but as far as I'm concerned on this relatively minor infraction I'd rather conform as I rather enjoy the associations I'm with.

[maven]

Ok fellas you've made yourselves clear, but as far as I'm concerned on this relatively minor infraction I'd rather conform as I rather enjoy the associations I'm with.

 

I understand that there are leagues and areas where buckets are unavoidable. If I lived there, I would:

 

a. do as others suggest, namely rule each case as far as possible so that the bucketeers do not benefit from their illegal actions, and

 

b. work with the powers that be to move the association in the direction of enforcing the rules.

[mrumpiresir]

You need to enforce all the rules, not just the ones you determine are important.  How about you taking the lead and enforcing the rules as written and be man enough to point out to those won't enforce this that they are wrong?

 

During an evaluation, at least around here, you will receive a major ding for allowing equipment on the field.

 

Now I understand there may be politics involved, but I can't imagine you being ostracized for enforcing the rule.  

[mrumpiresir]

 

Ok fellas you've made yourselves clear, but as far as I'm concerned on this relatively minor infraction I'd rather conform as I rather enjoy the associations I'm with.

 

I understand that there are leagues and areas where buckets are unavoidable. If I lived there, I would:

 

a. do as others suggest, namely rule each case as far as possible so that the bucketeers do not benefit from their illegal actions, and

 

b. work with the powers that be to move the association in the direction of enforcing the rules.

 

Buckets are always avoidable if they are completely within the dugout

[BigUmp56]

It sounds like they're allowing two rules to be ignored. If I understand it, they're allowing coaches to sit on buckets outside of the dugouts, in the field of play. Big no-no. Now, you have someone unauthorized to be on the field utilizing equipment that gets left behind to do so. The rules provide for who should be out of the dugout and in the field of play when a team is on offense. Bucketeers ain't one of them. 

 

Tim.

[Guest Rob]

So just to clarify for everyone. The bucket in question here was sitting just inside the entrance to the dugout, and not sticking out of the dugout at all. So, no issues here with equipment littered in the playing area. However, the front of the bucket was dead even with the fence posts. My biggest problem is I could not tell if the ball would have gone into or not into the dugout if it was not for the ball deflecting of the front or side of the bucket and back into foul territory. Thus I called the ball live & in play.

 

Thanks everyone for your comments. I thought this one would make for some good conversation & debate.

[mstaylor]

If it's in the dugout, award bases, it would have gone in, as a matter of fact, it did.

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

[JaxRolo]

If it's in the dugout, award bases, it would have gone in, as a matter of fact, it did. Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

Yes it did!

[cyclonehokiece]

Physics are telling me that if it hits a bucket right in the entrance, it would of gone in.  They just made the call easier when it went "clunk".  Everyone in the park should of saw/heard that.  Award 2 bases TOT.

[noumpere]

Given the clarification then I amend my previous answer to "you should have awarded two bases but next time you will know."