R1 and R2 are at 1st and 3rd; R3 hits fly to LC.

[Scratch Franzeo]

We had this situtation last night ...  I was PU, my partner was in the C position.

 

Runners at 1st and 3rd and the ball was hit to deep left-center field.  My partner signaled that he had the ball (in the V), I went 3BLX to watch the runner tag-up at third. 

 

The ball was caught.  The runner at 3rd tagged and scored.  The runner at 1st advanced to 2nd.  This run tied the game at 3-3 in the top of the last inning.  The home team appealed.  They said that the runner at 1st left too soon.  Neither my partner nor I saw this happen, so the result of the appeal was that the runner was safe.

 

My question, in 2-man mechanics, who watches the runner on 1st in this situation?

[kristoffae]

The BU should be aware that the runner on first was tagging for an advance and therefore watch the catch by F7 and then quickly focus his attention to the runner on first.  Of course he cannot watch both at the same time so he needs to make a judgement on the runners position after the catch.  If the runner is already half way between first and second right after the catch then he can reasonably draw a conclusion that the runner left too soon.  However, if after the catch, the BU focuses his attention to the runner and the runner is only a step or two off of first base heading to second then the runner would get the benefit of the doubt. To answer the question "who watches the runner on 1st in this situation", the BU is responsible for this even if he cannot "watch" the runner the until after the catch.

[bam]

No one.  Hole in 2 man

[Scratch Franzeo]

I understand that I am responsible for both runners.  I also understand your point about "reasonable drawing conclusions."

 

However, I left out one important detail.  After F7 caught the ball, he threw the ball to F1, who then relayed the ball to F2 for a play at the plate.  It is for this reason that I did not watch the runner at first.

[noumpere]

PU can also glance over to see if R1 is tagging up and then switch his focus to R3 as the ball is nearly caught.  You won't see if R1 leaves early but you will see if he tries to cheat a lot.

[kristoffae]

I understand that I am responsible for both runners.  I also understand your point about "reasonable drawing conclusions."

 

However, I left out one important detail.  After F7 caught the ball, he threw the ball to F1, who then relayed the ball to F2 for a play at the plate.  It is for this reason that I did not watch the runner at first.

 

I do not think I said plate umpire was responsible for anything in regards to the runner on first.  Plate man has the tag and advance of the runner on third and any play at the plate on said runner. Base guy responsible for everything regarding runner at first.

[noumpere]

I understand that I am responsible for both runners.  I also understand your point about "reasonable drawing conclusions."

 

However, I left out one important detail.  After F7 caught the ball, he threw the ball to F1, who then relayed the ball to F2 for a play at the plate.  It is for this reason that I did not watch the runner at first.

Wow because F1 should have been behind the plate and F5 or maybe f3 depending on exactly where the ball was hit and how they run it should have been the cutoff.  Not that this has anything to do with the coverage and it just misdirecting the thread so I apologize.

[bam]

We had this discussion last year, I think.  I can't remember who it was, but someone was adamant (I thought strident) about someone having responsibility for R1.  If you've got an extra set of eyes, maybe. 

 

Just out of curiosity, who did they appeal to - you or your partner? 

[MidAmUmp]

The base umpire is responsible for the catch and the tag @ 1st.  I'd personally give the runner 3 steps (or the 1st base cutout if you're on grass), if he's any further than that when I look back at him I'd say he left early.  Gray area goes to the offense.

 

The plate umpire could maybe help if the tag is in your field of vision, but don't go out of your way to observe that touch - your primary responsibility is R3's tag up.

 

So...next question...assuming the runner left early and they successfully appeal for the 3rd out, does R3's run still count???

[kristoffae]

 

 

 

So...next question...assuming the runner left early and they successfully appeal for the 3rd out, does R3's run still count???

 

That was my thought.  Even after a successful appeal, the run still would have counted and you still have a tie game anyway.

[bam]

The base umpire is responsible for the catch and the tag @ 1st.  I'd personally give the runner 3 steps (or the 1st base cutout if you're on grass), if he's any further than that when I look back at him I'd say he left early.  Gray area goes to the offense.

 

The plate umpire could maybe help if the tag is in your field of vision, but don't go out of your way to observe that touch - your primary responsibility is R3's tag up.

 

So...next question...assuming the runner left early and they successfully appeal for the 3rd out, does R3's run still count???

 

If R3 hits the plate before the appeal, he sure does. 

[noumpere]

The base umpire is responsible for the catch and the tag @ 1st.  I'd personally give the runner 3 steps (or the 1st base cutout if you're on grass), if he's any further than that when I look back at him I'd say he left early.  Gray area goes to the offense.

 

The plate umpire could maybe help if the tag is in your field of vision, but don't go out of your way to observe that touch - your primary responsibility is R3's tag up.

 

So...next question...assuming the runner left early and they successfully appeal for the 3rd out, does R3's run still count???

Ooh ooh -- I know!  and it sure looks like a force play. lol.

[Mudder]

No one.  Hole in 2 man

Funny you say that, I've had coaches tell me that in this situation ( R1 & R3), they recognize this "hole", that they will have R1 intentionally leave early as they know one of the 2 umps usually won't pick it up, and if the defense does appeal, neither ump clearly sees it so all they can do is rule that he tagged up properly.

 

But yes agreed this is BU responsibility.

[Scratch Franzeo]

We had this discussion last year, I think.  I can't remember who it was, but someone was adamant (I thought strident) about someone having responsibility for R1.  If you've got an extra set of eyes, maybe. 

 

Just out of curiosity, who did they appeal to - you or your partner? 

 

my went to my parner - we then discussed

[UmpJM]

BU has the runner's retouch at 1B on the catch.

 

His primary responsibility is the catch though, so he's not going to get a great look at the retouch.

 

JM

[24sdad]

And just a reminder, don't be in such a hurry to take that glance over at R1.  F7 "catches" the ball, BU quickly glances back at R1's position as the crowd and dugout's go wild. BU turns back to F7 and the ball is rolling on the ground.  How did it get there?  Make sure the def. of a catch is fulfilled before you take that glance back.

[Richvee]

And just a reminder, don't be in such a hurry to take that glance over at R1.  F7 "catches" the ball, BU quickly glances back at R1's position as the crowd and dugout's go wild. BU turns back to F7 and the ball is rolling on the ground.  How did it get there?  Make sure the def. of a catch is fulfilled before you take that glance back.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

Happened to me. It won't ever happen again. 

[blue23ll]

You can always take a quick glance at R1 after the initial touch of the ball, and not make a catch/no catch call until possession is secure. Try to line up deep enough in the working area so that you can make that glance without moving your head, I know that might not be possible, but it's worth a try.

[24sdad]

You can always take a quick glance at R1 after the initial touch of the ball, and not make a catch/no catch call until possession is secure. Try to line up deep enough in the working area so that you can make that glance without moving your head, I know that might not be possible, but it's worth a try.

blue23, I would advise against this.  Too much can happen during your "quick glance."  Remember our responsibilities - fair/foul, catch/no catch, etc.  If you are not sure if you have a catch/no catch, then R1's tagging up is moot.  Stay with outfielder's catch until satisfied, glance at runner (using MidAmUmp's yardstick) and just umpire.  If defensive HC wants to come out and argue, don't try and justify or make excuses regarding your responsibilities.  A simple, "(name) I don't have him leaving early."  Limitations of two-man system and it is what it is.

 

Your second sentence about positioning is solid advice.

[Thunderheads]

OK ...can I ask something stupid?

 

If U1 has the tag up at 3rd, he also must see the catch also (for the most part ....I know, once F7 'touches' it is when he can go, but you know what I mean) ....so technically won't you have 2 sets of eyes on this catch/no catch?

[blue23ll]

@24sdad, if you work deep enough in the working area and you have opened your field of view, it could be possible to see the tag/touch. If this isn't possible, then you have to stay with the catch/no catch.

 

@thunderheads, it might be that you have two sets of eyes viewing the same catch. You have only one person who is responsible for making the catch/no catch call,, though. Again, as in  U2 opening their field of view by working deeper in the working area, the PU must work to align F7 with R3 tagging, in order to see the touch/tag play at 3rd. There have been times when I had to go as deep as the backstop fence to get as much angle as possible to view the tag up.

[24sdad]

Not stupid at all.

 

Unless F7 is going to the foul line, catch/no catch is BU's.  And I think you answered your own question.  As PU, I am dropping back attempting to put the "touch" of F7 and R3's tag up in my sight.  As soon as I have a touch, my focus is on R3 for a proper tag up, any OBS by F5 or shenanigans by 3rd BC.  As I move back toward POP, I am looking to see if R3 is going, glancing at R7, etc.  As PU, I probably will see the catch, but as BU I can not rely on PU to bail me out if I am glancing at R1 as the ball is dropped.

 

So I guess, to answer your question, sure there will be overlap of both umpires.  But don't always count on it.

[Thunderheads]

Not stupid at all.

 

Unless F7 is going to the foul line, catch/no catch is BU's.  And I think you answered your own question.  As PU, I am dropping back attempting to put the "touch" of F7 and R3's tag up in my sight.  As soon as I have a touch, my focus is on R3 for a proper tag up, any OBS by F5 or shenanigans by 3rd BC.  As I move back toward POP, I am looking to see if R3 is going, glancing at R7, etc.  As PU, I probably will see the catch, but as BU I can not rely on PU to bail me out if I am glancing at R1 as the ball is dropped.

 

So I guess, to answer your question, sure there will be overlap of both umpires.  But don't always count on it.

Makes perfect sense! Thanks

[noumpere]

OK ...can I ask something stupid?

 

If U1 has the tag up at 3rd, he also must see the catch also (for the most part ....I know, once F7 'touches' it is when he can go, but you know what I mean) ....so technically won't you have 2 sets of eyes on this catch/no catch?

Youll have 2 sets of eyes on the touch but only one set of eyes on the catch.

[Scratch Franzeo]

Thanks for all of your input.  It is greatly appreciated.

 

One thing I will do from now on is discuss this situation in my pregame meeting.