Rolled Bats

[alan2703]

Bat discussion came up, big item modified bats(baseball) mostly rolled bats. My question is has anyone come across a rolled bat and if so what tipped it off. I thought I had one BBCOR bat but did not sound right when ball was hit,looked at bat and not sure so let it stay in game. Any thoughts,alan

[Thunderheads]

Bat discussion came up, big item modified bats(baseball) mostly rolled bats. My question is has anyone come across a rolled bat and if so what tipped it off. I thought I had one BBCOR bat but did not sound right when ball was hit,looked at bat and not sure so let it stay in game. Any thoughts,alan

What's a 'rolled' bat?

 

If it's stamped BBCOR you're set, ...if you think it sounds funny, take a look at it.  You can tell if the top cap has come off, it should be pretty clear....

[Big Red]

Jeff,

A rolled bat is one that has been basically run through a compression device, such as an industrial roller.  Outside of heating a bat, it is the most commonly employed method to "enhance" a bat, especially the composite bats.  When I used to play a ton of softball, I knew alot of guys who did this.  The compression accelerates the breaking in of the material and loosens it up as well, particularly composite fibers, thus increasing the COR of the bat.

The biggest give-aways are actual roll marks the length of the bat or spider-webbing of the finish/paint where they used too much pressure.  Majority of time you can run your hand down the barrel and feel the roll marks.  Using a bat ring will also help identify ones that have been rolled as they tend to oblong during the process.

 

Another method used is shaving the bat, where the end cap is removed and material is lathed/shaved off the inside of the bat wall.  These are very tough to find...only giveaway on these is an end cap improperly resecured.  Outside of that, you have to have an inside caliper to confirm! 

I've seen both instances, though haven't seen one as an umpire.  One guy I played with shaved his bat too much...first hit and the bat cracked in half and the end cap flew off!

As such, most attempts are by amateurs and relatively easy to catch.

 

However, there are companies out there that actually specialize in this stuff.  Here's a link to one company that will roll or shave ANY bat for you (in Tempe AZ no less!).  Seeing their method for rolling would indicate difficulty in finding this on the field.  I would think this is why the bat companies are coming out as strong as they are with civil and even criminal actions for this stuff. 

 

http://www.worldshottestbats.com/index.php?route=common/home

[Thunderheads]

wow, thanks Big Red!

[GoodOldGus]

Jeff,

A rolled bat is one that has been basically run through a compression device, such as an industrial roller.  Outside of heating a bat, it is the most commonly employed method to "enhance" a bat, especially the composite bats.  When I used to play a ton of softball, I knew alot of guys who did this.  The compression accelerates the breaking in of the material and loosens it up as well, particularly composite fibers, thus increasing the COR of the bat.

The biggest give-aways are actual roll marks the length of the bat or spider-webbing of the finish/paint where they used too much pressure.  Majority of time you can run your hand down the barrel and feel the roll marks.  Using a bat ring will also help identify ones that have been rolled as they tend to oblong during the process.

 

Another method used is shaving the bat, where the end cap is removed and material is lathed/shaved off the inside of the bat wall.  These are very tough to find...only giveaway on these is an end cap improperly resecured.  Outside of that, you have to have an inside caliper to confirm! 

I've seen both instances, though haven't seen one as an umpire.  One guy I played with shaved his bat too much...first hit and the bat cracked in half and the end cap flew off!

As such, most attempts are by amateurs and relatively easy to catch.

 

However, there are companies out there that actually specialize in this stuff.  Here's a link to one company that will roll or shave ANY bat for you (in Tempe AZ no less!).  Seeing their method for rolling would indicate difficulty in finding this on the field.  I would think this is why the bat companies are coming out as strong as they are with civil and even criminal actions for this stuff. 

 

http://www.worldshottestbats.com/index.php?route=common/home

 

Doesn't this company know it there is a FEDERAL law against altering bats?! 

[Thunderheads]

Jeff,

A rolled bat is one that has been basically run through a compression device, such as an industrial roller.  Outside of heating a bat, it is the most commonly employed method to "enhance" a bat, especially the composite bats.  When I used to play a ton of softball, I knew alot of guys who did this.  The compression accelerates the breaking in of the material and loosens it up as well, particularly composite fibers, thus increasing the COR of the bat.

The biggest give-aways are actual roll marks the length of the bat or spider-webbing of the finish/paint where they used too much pressure.  Majority of time you can run your hand down the barrel and feel the roll marks.  Using a bat ring will also help identify ones that have been rolled as they tend to oblong during the process.

 

Another method used is shaving the bat, where the end cap is removed and material is lathed/shaved off the inside of the bat wall.  These are very tough to find...only giveaway on these is an end cap improperly resecured.  Outside of that, you have to have an inside caliper to confirm! 

I've seen both instances, though haven't seen one as an umpire.  One guy I played with shaved his bat too much...first hit and the bat cracked in half and the end cap flew off!

As such, most attempts are by amateurs and relatively easy to catch.

 

However, there are companies out there that actually specialize in this stuff.  Here's a link to one company that will roll or shave ANY bat for you (in Tempe AZ no less!).  Seeing their method for rolling would indicate difficulty in finding this on the field.  I would think this is why the bat companies are coming out as strong as they are with civil and even criminal actions for this stuff. 

 

http://www.worldshottestbats.com/index.php?route=common/home

 

Doesn't this company know it there is a FEDERAL law against altering bats?! 

obviously not !  strange!  boy they brag about it too, don't they?

 

Just noticed this:

Bat Shaving Service

 

 

Review:

 

 

Includes Rolling and Endloading (if desired)

 

Read more about bat shaving.

 

Disclaimer

Shaved bats should only be used in home run derbies, tournaments where there are no bat restrictions and anywhere it is legal for such bats to be used. Shaved bats should not and cannot be used in sanctioned league play and tournaments where bats are certified to stay under a certain performance level or anywhere it is illegal. All customers must sign a Shaving release form agreeing that they will not use the shaved bats in sanctioned league play, tournaments or anywhere it is illegal.

 

[GoodOldGus]

So.....their "disclaimer" is the possible loop hole in the Federal law.  Seems like they are walking a fine line!!! 

[SnareDrum]

USSSA has advertised a machine that you can run a bat through and it detects alterations as well as providing the BBCOR. Naturally it's for sale to their complexes and it's not cheap.  I've never seen it in action, but I hear it's pretty accurate.

[BalkHawk]

The law says if you kill the pitcher with a liner to the head, you are a 1st degree murderer, but, God bless the U.S.A., there is no law against owning a rolled bat, or using one in a home run derby.

 

They won't be obvious to spot, and you shouldn't really be looking in most instances. The 2nd 450ft HR that 17 year old just hit will give it away.

[mstaylor]

Our local USSSA slow pitch board checked bats last year. They told them the first offense they would tell them to remove it. Repeat offense was a year suspension. One team lost all their bats. 

[Rich Ives]

Jeff,

A rolled bat is one that has been basically run through a compression device, such as an industrial roller.  Outside of heating a bat, it is the most commonly employed method to "enhance" a bat, especially the composite bats.  When I used to play a ton of softball, I knew alot of guys who did this.  The compression accelerates the breaking in of the material and loosens it up as well, particularly composite fibers, thus increasing the COR of the bat.

The biggest give-aways are actual roll marks the length of the bat or spider-webbing of the finish/paint where they used too much pressure.  Majority of time you can run your hand down the barrel and feel the roll marks.  Using a bat ring will also help identify ones that have been rolled as they tend to oblong during the process.

 

Another method used is shaving the bat, where the end cap is removed and material is lathed/shaved off the inside of the bat wall.  These are very tough to find...only giveaway on these is an end cap improperly resecured.  Outside of that, you have to have an inside caliper to confirm! 

I've seen both instances, though haven't seen one as an umpire.  One guy I played with shaved his bat too much...first hit and the bat cracked in half and the end cap flew off!

As such, most attempts are by amateurs and relatively easy to catch.

 

However, there are companies out there that actually specialize in this stuff.  Here's a link to one company that will roll or shave ANY bat for you (in Tempe AZ no less!).  Seeing their method for rolling would indicate difficulty in finding this on the field.  I would think this is why the bat companies are coming out as strong as they are with civil and even criminal actions for this stuff. 

 

http://www.worldshottestbats.com/index.php?route=common/home

 

Doesn't this company know it there is a FEDERAL law against altering bats?! 

 

 

Cite it please.

[Jocko]

Jeff,A rolled bat is one that has been basically run through a compression device, such as an industrial roller.  Outside of heating a bat, it is the most commonly employed method to "enhance" a bat, especially the composite bats.  When I used to play a ton of softball, I knew alot of guys who did this.  The compression accelerates the breaking in of the material and loosens it up as well, particularly composite fibers, thus increasing the COR of the bat.The biggest give-aways are actual roll marks the length of the bat or spider-webbing of the finish/paint where they used too much pressure.  Majority of time you can run your hand down the barrel and feel the roll marks.  Using a bat ring will also help identify ones that have been rolled as they tend to oblong during the process. Another method used is shaving the bat, where the end cap is removed and material is lathed/shaved off the inside of the bat wall.  These are very tough to find...only giveaway on these is an end cap improperly resecured.  Outside of that, you have to have an inside caliper to confirm! I've seen both instances, though haven't seen one as an umpire.  One guy I played with shaved his bat too much...first hit and the bat cracked in half and the end cap flew off!As such, most attempts are by amateurs and relatively easy to catch. However, there are companies out there that actually specialize in this stuff.  Here's a link to one company that will roll or shave ANY bat for you (in Tempe AZ no less!).  Seeing their method for rolling would indicate difficulty in finding this on the field.  I would think this is why the bat companies are coming out as strong as they are with civil and even criminal actions for this stuff.  http://www.worldshottestbats.com/index.php?route=common/home

 Doesn't this company know it there is a FEDERAL law against altering bats?!   Cite it please.

Many bat designs have been patented by manufacturers. Modifying the design of the bat, while passing if off as an original, is a violation of the manufacturer's patent and copyright. Furthermore, all bats approved for play in the ASA, USSSA, NSF, ISF, NCAA, Little League, or any other governing body bear a certification mark which means that a particular bat model has tested in a rigorous laboratory experiment in which its performance has been measured and found to fall below some set standard. These certification marks are federally registered trademarks, and altering a bat so that it exceeds the certified level of performance is considered a federal crime. Several manufacturers and governing bodies have been successfully filing and winning lawsuits against bat doctors for violation of trademark and patent rights. The ASA has recently been awarded two $100,000 judgements in lawsuits filed against individuals who illegally altered bats bearing certification stamps, and several other lawsuits are pending.

[SnareDrum]

 

Jeff,

A rolled bat is one that has been basically run through a compression device, such as an industrial roller.  Outside of heating a bat, it is the most commonly employed method to "enhance" a bat, especially the composite bats.  When I used to play a ton of softball, I knew alot of guys who did this.  The compression accelerates the breaking in of the material and loosens it up as well, particularly composite fibers, thus increasing the COR of the bat.

The biggest give-aways are actual roll marks the length of the bat or spider-webbing of the finish/paint where they used too much pressure.  Majority of time you can run your hand down the barrel and feel the roll marks.  Using a bat ring will also help identify ones that have been rolled as they tend to oblong during the process.

 

Another method used is shaving the bat, where the end cap is removed and material is lathed/shaved off the inside of the bat wall.  These are very tough to find...only giveaway on these is an end cap improperly resecured.  Outside of that, you have to have an inside caliper to confirm! 

I've seen both instances, though haven't seen one as an umpire.  One guy I played with shaved his bat too much...first hit and the bat cracked in half and the end cap flew off!

As such, most attempts are by amateurs and relatively easy to catch.

 

However, there are companies out there that actually specialize in this stuff.  Here's a link to one company that will roll or shave ANY bat for you (in Tempe AZ no less!).  Seeing their method for rolling would indicate difficulty in finding this on the field.  I would think this is why the bat companies are coming out as strong as they are with civil and even criminal actions for this stuff. 

 

http://www.worldshottestbats.com/index.php?route=common/home

 

Doesn't this company know it there is a FEDERAL law against altering bats?! 

 

 

Cite it please.

--------------------------

There actually isn't a specific Federal law against altering bats. Alterations fall under the broad scope of Federal (and many state) copyright"trademark laws" that can be prosecuted by a governing body such as USSSA using that trademark violation provision. See Why is bat doctoring illegal? for more...

[Rich Ives]

I wouldn't try that in court. Based on what  PhD in the acoustics department said?  What did the JD say?

 

The violation the PhD cites includes "passing it off as original".  So the alteration isn't illegal, it's subsequently claiming it is original. The disclaimer makes you sign that you know it's been altered. So you may be guilty of a patent or trademark violation on a misrepresentation basis but the alteration itself doesn't seem to be illegal. And I'd wager that it would only be a law violation if you were a business advertizing it as original.

 

Is it against the law to break a game rule? You can go to jail for holding or pass interference?

 

Think folks.

[Jocko]

WTFGAS????? Come on, man.

[mstaylor]

I bet there could be a case made for manslaughter or reckless endangerment if an altered bat killed a kid. Whether a parent or a coach tries to pass a rolled bat off as an unaltered bat, they should be held responsible. As long as the need to win outweighs safety we will see rolled bats and shaved bats. 

[mstaylor]

Is it against the law to break a game rule?

 

 

Rich:

It can be if it is a safety rule. As umpires we are taught to enforce all safety rules, keeping kids in dugouts, no jewelry, helmets on in live ball, legal bats....When we don't and bad things happen, we open ourselves up for a lawsuit. Conversely, irresponsible parents and coaches should be held equally liable. 

[johnnyg08]

This is all CYA stuff that lawyers made them put into the rule.  There is no way I'm going on the witch hunt attempting to identify a rolled bat.

 

Until there is specific training by the sanctioning organization, I'm not picking up that end of the stick...bat.

[scrounge]

I wouldn't try that in court. Based on what  PhD in the acoustics department said?  What did the JD say?

 

The violation the PhD cites includes "passing it off as original".  So the alteration isn't illegal, it's subsequently claiming it is original. The disclaimer makes you sign that you know it's been altered. So you may be guilty of a patent or trademark violation on a misrepresentation basis but the alteration itself doesn't seem to be illegal. And I'd wager that it would only be a law violation if you were a business advertizing it as original.

 

Is it against the law to break a game rule? You can go to jail for holding or pass interference?

 

Think folks.

 

You don't think that willfully and recklessly altering a piece of equipment specifically to void a manufacturer's safety standard won't expose you to potentially massive civil liability? Forget the trademark and patent stuff - that's chump change compared to gross negligence and wanton disregard for the safety of fellow participants. It has nothing to do with a mere 'rule' - it's disabling a safety feature in a way that can get someone killed.

[Rich Ives]

I wouldn't try that in court. Based on what  PhD in the acoustics department said?  What did the JD say?

 

The violation the PhD cites includes "passing it off as original".  So the alteration isn't illegal, it's subsequently claiming it is original. The disclaimer makes you sign that you know it's been altered. So you may be guilty of a patent or trademark violation on a misrepresentation basis but the alteration itself doesn't seem to be illegal. And I'd wager that it would only be a law violation if you were a business advertizing it as original.

 

Is it against the law to break a game rule? You can go to jail for holding or pass interference?

 

Think folks.

 

You don't think that willfully and recklessly altering a piece of equipment specifically to void a manufacturer's safety standard won't expose you to potentially massive civil liability? Forget the trademark and patent stuff - that's chump change compared to gross negligence and wanton disregard for the safety of fellow participants. It has nothing to do with a mere 'rule' - it's disabling a safety feature in a way that can get someone killed.

 

Will I go to jail if I put a hot camshaft and reprogrammed chip in my car?

 

Not for doing that.

 

Will it void the warranty. Probably. At least the engine/drive train part. Probably not on the other parts.

 

If I then drive recklessly with it and injure or kill someone could I go to jail - yes.  But not for altering the car. For driving recklessly.

 

But just doing the modification is not illegal.

 

Same with a bat.

[scrounge]

 

I wouldn't try that in court. Based on what  PhD in the acoustics department said?  What did the JD say?

 

The violation the PhD cites includes "passing it off as original".  So the alteration isn't illegal, it's subsequently claiming it is original. The disclaimer makes you sign that you know it's been altered. So you may be guilty of a patent or trademark violation on a misrepresentation basis but the alteration itself doesn't seem to be illegal. And I'd wager that it would only be a law violation if you were a business advertizing it as original.

 

Is it against the law to break a game rule? You can go to jail for holding or pass interference?

 

Think folks.

 

You don't think that willfully and recklessly altering a piece of equipment specifically to void a manufacturer's safety standard won't expose you to potentially massive civil liability? Forget the trademark and patent stuff - that's chump change compared to gross negligence and wanton disregard for the safety of fellow participants. It has nothing to do with a mere 'rule' - it's disabling a safety feature in a way that can get someone killed.

 

Will I go to jail if I put a hot camshaft and reprogrammed chip in my car?

 

Not for doing that.

 

Will it void the warranty. Probably. At least the engine/drive train part. Probably not on the other parts.

 

If I then drive recklessly with it and injure or kill someone could I go to jail - yes.  But not for altering the car. For driving recklessly.

 

But just doing the modification is not illegal.

 

Same with a bat.

 

I don't think that's anywhere near an applicable analogy. This is more like adjusting the accelerator pedal to make it more sensitive and then letting someone else drive the car. They probably won't crash...but if they do? Hell's coming to your breakfast.

[mstaylor]

Rich, not a good analogy at all. With the car mods you still retain the ability to use the new functions or maintain a safe speed. Modify a bat, one that is made to meet the safety specs for the governing body, and then use it, you or anyone else using it has no control over the exit speed of the ball coming off that bat. The reason for the modification is to enhance the action off the bat which directly combats the whole reasoning behind the safety rule. Now enter into the equation, sub 18 yr olds and you are endangering unsuspecting youths. 

[Jocko]

Rich, I know you're a stickler for rules. Why is it coming across that you are championing altering bats? Why are you the only pro to all us anti? Will anyone get arrested at the field? Of course not. Is it against APPLICABLE local/state/federal laws? Absolutely. There are 2 kinds of laws..... Criminal and Civil. Altering bats falls under the latter.

THIS ARGUMENT OVER PUNISHABLE LEGALITY IS ABSURD. I'M DONE READING ABOUT IT..

[Rich Ives]

Rich, I know you're a stickler for rules. Why is it coming across that you are championing altering bats? Why are you the only pro to all us anti? Will anyone get arrested at the field? Of course not. Is it against APPLICABLE local/state/federal laws? Absolutely. There are 2 kinds of laws..... Criminal and Civil. Altering bats falls under the latter.

THIS ARGUMENT OVER PUNISHABLE LEGALITY IS ABSURD. I'M DONE READING ABOUT IT..

 

 

Where the HELL did I champion altering bats. There is no no no no no no pro in any of my posts. None. Nada. Zilch.

 

All I said was that the act itself is not illegal. The consequences of using it can be severe but the mere act is not not not not not illegal. Why is that so hard to comprehend?

[Rich Ives]

Rich, not a good analogy at all. With the car mods you still retain the ability to use the new functions or maintain a safe speed. Modify a bat, one that is made to meet the safety specs for the governing body, and then use it, you or anyone else using it has no control over the exit speed of the ball coming off that bat. The reason for the modification is to enhance the action off the bat which directly combats the whole reasoning behind the safety rule. Now enter into the equation, sub 18 yr olds and you are endangering unsuspecting youths. 

 

 

Is is a perfect analogy.  The alteration itself is NOT illegal.  It is the consequences of using it and resultant liability that are the problem.  Why is that a difficult concept to comprehend?

[Rich Ives]

 

 

I wouldn't try that in court. Based on what  PhD in the acoustics department said?  What did the JD say?

 

The violation the PhD cites includes "passing it off as original".  So the alteration isn't illegal, it's subsequently claiming it is original. The disclaimer makes you sign that you know it's been altered. So you may be guilty of a patent or trademark violation on a misrepresentation basis but the alteration itself doesn't seem to be illegal. And I'd wager that it would only be a law violation if you were a business advertizing it as original.

 

Is it against the law to break a game rule? You can go to jail for holding or pass interference?

 

Think folks.

 

You don't think that willfully and recklessly altering a piece of equipment specifically to void a manufacturer's safety standard won't expose you to potentially massive civil liability? Forget the trademark and patent stuff - that's chump change compared to gross negligence and wanton disregard for the safety of fellow participants. It has nothing to do with a mere 'rule' - it's disabling a safety feature in a way that can get someone killed.

 

Will I go to jail if I put a hot camshaft and reprogrammed chip in my car?

 

Not for doing that.

 

Will it void the warranty. Probably. At least the engine/drive train part. Probably not on the other parts.

 

If I then drive recklessly with it and injure or kill someone could I go to jail - yes.  But not for altering the car. For driving recklessly.

 

But just doing the modification is not illegal.

 

Same with a bat.

 

I don't think that's anywhere near an applicable analogy. This is more like adjusting the accelerator pedal to make it more sensitive and then letting someone else drive the car. They probably won't crash...but if they do? Hell's coming to your breakfast.

 

 

It's exactly the same as your example. You modified the car. That is NOT illegal. The consequences can cause a problem. That's a liability issue and may cost you plenty. But the actual modification is not illegal.

 

This should not be that difficult to understand.