BU Goes to PU for Call

[NCAAump2]

At our HS association meeting last Saturday, the situation was brought up of whether it was wrong for the BU (from B or C) to go directly to the PU for a call at first base on a possible swipe tag or missed base.  I feel like the BU needs to make an initial call from wherever he is, and then the crew can discuss the call and change it if necessary.  Our association prez said he thinks its perfectly fine for the BU to go to the PU first, since he most likely has the better angle.  

 

Thoughts?  

[Richvee]

As a BU, I'm making a call.  After, I quick look at PU can usually be enough to figure if he's got some info I might find useful. 

[BalkHawk]

according to the PBUC manual, this IS acceptable, but it is noted that the BU should almost always have proper positioning, making the "whaddya got" mechanic unnecessary.

If you get a new-school PBUC instructor, he will tell you about something off the menu they like to call "non-verbal communication". Basically, this means if a "whaddya got?" situation arises, instead of looking like Jimmy the umpire, you should glance at your partner, who makes no signal whatsoever until he sees you look to him. Since y'all went over this in the pre-game, he knows you want his input,. Now, he can just nod yes, as in he did tag him, or no, he missed him. If someone comes out, asking you to get help, you already have.

It's worth noting that the PBUC manual says if BU goes to PU on a swipe tag/pulled foot, BU should emphatically make the correct mechanic/verbal.

[umpcoachfather]

If I was PU and the BU was in B or C (additional base runner) I most likely wouldnt be able to make the call at first, i have my own responsibilities. 

[johnnyg08]

If I was PU and the BU was in B or C (additional base runner) I most likely wouldnt be able to make the call at first, i have my own responsibilities. 

 

 

Let's say R1, R2 (non-fed).  Ground ball to F6.  What are your responsibilities? 

[zm1283]

I just don't like the BU coming to the PU before making a call because the BU doesn't know if the PU has a better look or not.  I think it puts the PU in a bad spot.  I was working with a newer umpire last summer and I believe he was in C.  I don't remember where the runners were exactly, but I couldn't get much of a look at first.  F3 got pulled directly toward me and I was looking right up the runner's backside, so I had no idea if F3 stayed on the base.  He came to me immediately and I just told him I didn't see F3 off the base, which was true because I didn't see anything. (I didn't see him on the base either for that matter)  We talked between innings later on and I just told him he needs to try to get his own calls and then come to me if he is asked to get help.  

[BalkHawk]

He shouldn't be look at you to make the call, rather for any additional info you have. If you aren't sure there's an out, then you had him safe.

Again, this is a once a season mechanic, once a game is too much.

[noumpere]

If I was PU and the BU was in B or C (additional base runner) I most likely wouldnt be able to make the call at first, i have my own responsibilities. 

 

 

Let's say R1, R2 (non-fed).  Ground ball to F6.  What are your responsibilities? 

If the play goes to second and then first or just to first , you have R2 touching third, a slide vioaltion at second and maybe obstruction at third.  That seems like enough to keep you busy.

 

If the play goes to third and then first you still have a slide violation at third and you should be helping your partner by watching r1 touch second even though that isn't listed in the books too many seem to be a slave to.

[BalkHawk]

 

If I was PU and the BU was in B or C (additional base runner) I most likely wouldnt be able to make the call at first, i have my own responsibilities. 

 

 

Let's say R1, R2 (non-fed).  Ground ball to F6.  What are your responsibilities? 

If the play goes to second and then first or just to first , you have R2 touching third, a slide vioaltion at second and maybe obstruction at third.  That seems like enough to keep you busy.

 

If the play goes to third and then first you still have a slide violation at third and you should be helping your partner by watching r1 touch second even though that isn't listed in the books too many seem to be a slave to.

according to the Publication manual of the American Psychological Association (6th ed.), one should never end a sentence with a preposition.

 

as for quoting PBUC and their manual, which you have pointed out is not the end-all-be-all, I can either back up my advice by proving that a better umpire than me said so, or I can pass along all the bs we hear in the locker room. 

[LMSANS]

The American Psychological Association is always the place I go to for grammar lessons.😇👂 Larry Sansevere Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jocko]

It's where I go, because they have students under precept and do the work pro bono. And I need AAALLLLOOOTTT of therapy.

[BalkHawk]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APA_style

 

....The APA states that the guidelines were developed to assist reading comprehension in the social and behavioral sciences, for clarity of communication, and for "word choice that best reduces bias in language".....

 

My college considers it the go-to place for grammar lessons too, Larry. 

 

[grayhawk]

I think this mechanic is okay, with a couple of caveats:

 

1.  This needs to be pregamed - thoroughly.  Discuss every possible iteration. (R1, R1/R2, R1/R3, Bases Loaded, R2, R3, R2/R3).  You may ask in some situations, but not others.

2.  I think it's probably best with experienced umpires, preferably who have worked together.

3.  Know, in advance, how you are going to phrase your question.  It needs to be specific.

 

Personally, I prefer BU to make the call.  If I have information for him, then I will be standing somewhere I wouldn't normally be standing (I would normally be hustling back to my position behind the plate).  If a coach comes out, then he knows I have something for him and I can give him what I've got - privately.

[Jocko]

I've done it both ways and seen it done both ways. Both of these happened at the Utrip WS doing 16u.

Ex 1. I was in C with a new partner (experienced, just never worked together before). Throw pulls F3 and he swipes at BR. I was absolutely straightlined. A glance at HP shows he had his head on a swivel and saw the play. I go to him with, "Was there a tag (or something like that)?" He give me a big grin and empahtically syas, "Yes ther was (or something like that) and signals the out. During our post game, he patted my shoulder and said that he loved my appeal.

Ex 2. I was HP with a BU I had never worked with but knew he called JUCO and DII. F3 with a pulled foot. BU calls the out and announces that he will appeal on his own whether or not F3 pulled. He points to me and asks if F3 pulled. I give the yes he pulled verbal with the sweeping hands mechanic followed by a safe sign.

Was one more correct than the other? Not sure. All I know is that in both cases we got the call right and averted a s**tstorm. And, IMO, we looked like a gelled, cohesive crew.

[Richvee]

I think this mechanic is okay, with a couple of caveats:

 

1.  This needs to be pregamed - thoroughly.  Discuss every possible iteration. (R1, R1/R2, R1/R3, Bases Loaded, R2, R3, R2/R3).  You may ask in some situations, but not others.

2.  I think it's probably best with experienced umpires, preferably who have worked together.

3.  Know, in advance, how you are going to phrase your question.  It needs to be specific.

 

Personally, I prefer BU to make the call.  If I have information for him, then I will be standing somewhere I wouldn't normally be standing (I would normally be hustling back to my position behind the plate).  If a coach comes out, then he knows I have something for him and I can give him what I've got - privately.

^^^^^^This^^^^^^^

Said a lot better and more specific than my attempted answer last night! 

[noumpere]

The American Psychological Association is always the place I go to for grammar lessons. Larry Sansevere Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I freely admit I dont go nowhere for grammar lessons.

[noumpere]

I think this mechanic is okay, with a couple of caveats:

 

1.  This needs to be pregamed - thoroughly.  Discuss every possible iteration. (R1, R1/R2, R1/R3, Bases Loaded, R2, R3, R2/R3).  You may ask in some situations, but not others.

2.  I think it's probably best with experienced umpires, preferably who have worked together.

3.  Know, in advance, how you are going to phrase your question.  It needs to be specific.

 

Personally, I prefer BU to make the call.  If I have information for him, then I will be standing somewhere I wouldn't normally be standing (I would normally be hustling back to my position behind the plate).  If a coach comes out, then he knows I have something for him and I can give him what I've got - privately.

^^^^^^This^^^^^^^

Said a lot better and more specific than my attempted answer last night! 

That's what I think is better and what I try to do when I;m on the bases but I'm also alert for the other way when it's the plate I'm behind.

 

(Hey -- look ma! another preposition he ended a sentence with!)

[Jocko]

The American Psychological Association is always the place I go to for grammar lessons. Larry Sansevere Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I freely admit I dont go nowhere for grammar lessons. Fair enough. There are enough grammar police on UE to fill the void.

P.S. The ironic, intentional double negative was a nice touch. +1

[Jocko]

Mmmmm. Proper sentence structure use you must. The force smoother flows when sentences in prepositions you end not. You must unlearn what you have learned. Do or do not. There is no try. Listen to Moto you must. An education he has and knowledge will he impart. Yyeeesssssss. Feel the Force flow. The verb. The noun. The adjective. The Force through everything flows. :meditation:

[umpcoachfather]

You said non-Fed.  How many outs?  Ball to F-6?  inside or outside of him, double play ball or slow roller?  I'm  getting to working area Fast.  I got one eye on R2 and the other on F-6. I see where the play takes me depending on the action of the defense and the BU - above Fed I will prob stay, under Fed you never know where the ball goes. If I never ever worked with my partner, and he showed up 3 minutes before the game. I hopefully will have made the neccesary determination that he is mostly likely going to do the right thing or not.  I will also signal him prior to the 1st pitch as to my intentions.  

[Forest Ump]

If you have to go to your partner to make your call, then you must give him your free hotdog when you get to the LL snack shack. That's the rule.

[BalkHawk]

Jocko, on 20 Feb 2013 - 21:42, said:

Mmmmm. Proper sentence structure use you must. The force smoother flows when sentences in prepositions you end not. You must unlearn what you have learned. Do or do not. There is no try. Listen to Moto you must. An education he has and knowledge will he impart. Yyeeesssssss. Feel the Force flow. The verb. The noun. The adjective. The Force through everything flows.

I do hate when people who speak English can't speak English. On this site though, I just keep that to myself.

Some think that if your answer to everything is, "The book says..." you are a slave to the book. I say, if you don't know how to spell a word, go to Webster's. So, when I field a question about the 3-man system, my instinct is to quote the people who know best.

[noumpere]

Jocko, on 20 Feb 2013 - 21:42, said:

Mmmmm. Proper sentence structure use you must. The force smoother flows when sentences in prepositions you end not. You must unlearn what you have learned. Do or do not. There is no try. Listen to Moto you must. An education he has and knowledge will he impart. Yyeeesssssss. Feel the Force flow. The verb. The noun. The adjective. The Force through everything flows.

I do hate when people who speak English can't speak English. On this site though, I just keep that to myself.

Some think that if your answer to everything is, "The book says..." you are a slave to the book. I say, if you don't know how to spell a word, go to Webster's. So, when I field a question about the 3-man system, my instinct is to quote the people who know best.

All I mean or meant by that is that there are times when something isn't exactly covered in the book and you need to know what to do.  Some call it working with the book and not by the book.

 

A couple of 2-man examples: R1.  Sac bunt.  R1 goes to third.  Defense appeals R1 missed second.  Who should be watching to see?  By the book, it's U1.  In practice, PU often has a better chance of seeing this.

 

Also, R1, two outs.  Trouble ball to deep left center, falls in.  R1 goes to second.  Who watches R1 touch first?  Same answer as above.

 

R3, two outs.  Deep fly down the right field line, crossing the pole just in front or just behind.  Can U1 help with the call?  Not by the book, but a good partner will have an opinion.

[dumbdumb]

Who does the PU go to on a swipe tag at the plate?

 

Or, if working a 1 man, who does the plate umpire go to?

[IABlue]

It always looks bad to make a call and then have to change it.  If you make a call, you should have a damn good idea of why you made it and be fairly confident that it was the correct decision.  Otherwise you're just guessing and you might as well pull a coin out of your pocket and flip it right there on the field.

 

If you are really unsure, got blocked, didn't have the angle, or whatever, it is often better to go immediately to your partner so that there is only one call made on the play and it doesn't look like you guys are just pulling stuff out of your a$$.

 

The flipside to that is that you better be damn sure that your partner was paying attention and can actually help you out.  This is something that I would definitely pre-game and make sure that everyone is on the same page before the situation arises.  It depends on the level and who I'm working with as to how likely I am to go for help.  The higher the level, the more important it is to get the call right, and the more likely it is that your partner is competent enough that he will be able to give you some quality help.

 

If it's a lower level with a partner that I'm not entirely comfortable with, I'm more likely to dial one up and just eat the call.  That's life, folks.  As my cousin that works major conference D1 ball once told me, every so often the umpire is allowed to miss one.

 

But most importantly, as several people have already noted, is that you really need to do everything you can to get the calls that are yours.  It is really unfair to hang a partner out to dry/put them on the spot when they might not be able to help you at all.  Then they look like an idiot and it's all your fault.  Unless of course you dislike your partner, then by all means do whatever you can to screw him over.

 

The best line posted so far on this is that it should be a once a year type of thing, not once a game, once a weekend, or even once a month.