Dead ball clarification

[conbo61]

Good morning -

 

Quick question for determining dead ball on a pop up.  This question was posed to me by a local HS Coach (FED Rule Set).

 

Ground rules dictate anything over a certain line is a dead ball.

 

Batter pops the ball back and the catcher chases.  BOTH feet are in DBT, however the ball drifts back over LBT (obviously still foul) when the catcher makes the catch.

 

So the question:  Dead ball/foul ball?  Batter out?  Does the position of the BALL or the feet govern the decision?

 

Thank you.

[johnnyg08]

Fielder would have to reposition himself back into live ball territory before catching the ball in order for the catch to count.  If I understand your question correctly.

[Thunderheads]

Good morning -

 

Quick question for determining dead ball on a pop up.  This question was posed to me by a local HS Coach (FED Rule Set).

 

Ground rules dictate anything over a certain line is a dead ball.

 

Batter pops the ball back and the catcher chases.  BOTH feet are in DBT, however the ball drifts back over LBT (obviously still foul) when the catcher makes the catch.

 

So the question:  Dead ball/foul ball?  Batter out?  Does the position of the BALL or the feet govern the decision?

 

Thank you.

doesn't he have to cross the line with both feet WITH the ball?

[conbo61]

The closest analogy I can come up with is a foul ball near the line on a breezy day.  If the fielder's feet are in foul ground, but the ball drifts back over fair ground and ticks off the fielder's glove and hits the deck, its a fair ball.  The position of the fielder's feet is not relevant, just the position of the BALL with respect to fair/foul territory.

 

FTR - I am calling this a DB since the rule stipulates the position of the fielder's feet and does NOT reference the position of the ball.  

[noumpere]

Good morning -

 

Quick question for determining dead ball on a pop up.  This question was posed to me by a local HS Coach (FED Rule Set).

 

Ground rules dictate anything over a certain line is a dead ball.

 

Batter pops the ball back and the catcher chases.  BOTH feet are in DBT, however the ball drifts back over LBT (obviously still foul) when the catcher makes the catch.

 

So the question:  Dead ball/foul ball?  Batter out?  Does the position of the BALL or the feet govern the decision?

 

Thank you.

 

Its the feet that matter in all codes even though the specifics of 1 foot vs two feet and whether the line is live or dead might vary by code

[noumpere]

Good morning -

 

Quick question for determining dead ball on a pop up.  This question was posed to me by a local HS Coach (FED Rule Set).

 

Ground rules dictate anything over a certain line is a dead ball.

 

Batter pops the ball back and the catcher chases.  BOTH feet are in DBT, however the ball drifts back over LBT (obviously still foul) when the catcher makes the catch.

 

So the question:  Dead ball/foul ball?  Batter out?  Does the position of the BALL or the feet govern the decision?

 

Thank you.

doesn't he have to cross the line with both feet WITH the ball?

No thats not correct. 

[Thunderheads]

 

Good morning -

 

Quick question for determining dead ball on a pop up.  This question was posed to me by a local HS Coach (FED Rule Set).

 

Ground rules dictate anything over a certain line is a dead ball.

 

Batter pops the ball back and the catcher chases.  BOTH feet are in DBT, however the ball drifts back over LBT (obviously still foul) when the catcher makes the catch.

 

So the question:  Dead ball/foul ball?  Batter out?  Does the position of the BALL or the feet govern the decision?

 

Thank you.

doesn't he have to cross the line with both feet WITH the ball?

No thats not correct. 

So it's the complete opposite of fair/foul .....

[johnnyg08]

Fielder would have to reposition himself back into live ball territory before catching the ball in order for the catch to count.  If I understand your question correctly.

 

 

I think I have it right.

[Jocko]

I never really did a comparison, but DB catches depend on position of the feet, ball location notwithstanding. Fair/Foul catches depend on the position of the ball, feet location notwithstanding.

So, yes. They are antithesis.

[Thunderheads]

I never really did a comparison, but DB catches depend on position of the feet, ball location notwithstanding. Fair/Foul catches depend on the position of the ball, feet location notwithstanding.

So, yes. They are antithesis.

Thanks Gregg, ...just confirming my thoughts

[grayhawk]

Fielder would have to reposition himself back into live ball territory before catching the ball in order for the catch to count.  If I understand your question correctly.

 

 

I think I have it right.

 

You do.

[BT_Blue]

I believe FED says that only one foot MUST be in LBT. Another way to think about this and come up with the easier answer. Ball popped back towards the stands. R2 makes the catch but is standing in the first row of seats. Ball would be foul due to his location.

[noumpere]

I believe FED says that only one foot MUST be in LBT. Another way to think about this and come up with the easier answer. Ball popped back towards the stands. R2 makes the catch but is standing in the first row of seats. Ball would be foul due to his location.

I think that's right but as I've said my books are back home.  To catch the ball, you need one foot in LBT or to be in the air having left from LBT.  But, if you make the catch in LBT and are running toward the line, you are not in DBT until both feet touch in DBT.  So, standing with one foot in DBT and the other in the air you cannot catch the ball for an out but if youve already caught it it remains live.

 

What I can't remember off the top of my rapidly thinning head is whether the line is live or dead in the various codes.

[BT_Blue]

As far as I can remember, there is a reason it is called a "dead ball line"... yes I know we also have a "foul line" as well as a "foul pole".

[UmpTTS43]

You can be on the line. Any part of the foot over the line is then considered OOP.

[noumpere]

You can be on the line. Any part of the foot over the line is then considered OOP.

I agree the line is live ball in HS and college.  But I think if you are touching dead ball territory at all in college it's a dead ball and not a catch (so just a foul ball).  if you are touching live ball at all in HS it's a catch.

[UMP45]

In FED you can straddle the DBL. Both feet have to be in DT.

[VolUmp]

Guys ... PLEASE post the rule ref when you answer.  This is a good question.  There are certainly right and wrong answers.   Rule refs make these threads half as long.

[BT_Blue]

No... no they don't.

[VolUmp]

FED 5-1-1i

"Ball becomes immediately dead when:

a fielder, after catching a fair or foul ball (fly or line drive), leaves the field of play by stepping with both feet or by falling into a bench, dugout, stand, bleacher, or over any boundary or barrier such as a fence, rope, chalk line, or a pregame determined imaginary line;

 

Unless there is another rule that specifically says you can straddle the line, I'd say this one certainly implies it with the word both.

[VolUmp]

There are times when one rule ref nails it.

There are times when multiple rule refs need to be used together.

There are times when no rule refs really answer, and a casebook item is our best bet.

 

This is precisely how "law" works ... based on precedent when there is no clear cut answer.

For the purpose of this board, let's think like lawyers, then relax a bit when on the field.

[Jocko]

The players are plaintiffs/defendants. HCs are prosecution/defense attorneys (dependent on each situation). We, the umpires, are the judge/jury, and sometimes executioner (think EJs). The "lawyers" try to twist and taint the situation to favor their team. It's our responsibility to interpret the situation using the "law" (rule/casebooks) and rule according to our best judgement. Without prejudice or regard to anything but the written words we are sworn to abide by.

Maybe we should swear an oath

"I, state your name, do swear to uphold the integrity of the game. I will execute my duties without prejudice, and will fairly administer my judgements according to the rules set forth by the governing body of this state, and the NFHS (NCAA, LL, whatever). I take this oath freely, without reservation. I will, at all times, look, think, and act like a professional in the duties of the office of which I am appointed. So help me God."

[JaxRolo]

In FED you can straddle the DBL. Both feet have to be in DT.

I believe you are correct. A fielder only needs one foot on or over fair territory to make a catch.

The rule that wildfire is quoting does not apply in this case.

I will find the correct reference in the morning unless someone beats me to it.

[VolUmp]

Jax, the rule I cited is likely not the BEST rule to back that sitch up, but it certainly still applies. 

If you catch a fly ball on the run and you are not OOP until both feet are over the line, then doesn't

the same logic say if you camp and catch a fly ball with only one foot over the line, you are still in play?

[JaxRolo]

Jax, the rule I cited is likely not the BEST rule to back that sitch up, but it certainly still applies.

If you catch a fly ball on the run and you are not OOP until both feet are over the line, then doesn't

the same logic say if you camp and catch a fly ball with only one foot over the line, you are still in play?

I see what you are saying but this is something that has been discussed in our association and I have also read it. In the rule book.

I just can't look it up right now.