double call

[guyinaredhat]

Ok i was working a tourney this weekend and had a slight hiccup in the semi final game .

18 U

OBR USSSA Rule set

 

I was working with one of our  best umpires on Sunday.   Most seniority,great knowledge, sharpest dressed, really well put together guy.  I've known him for years but this was  our first time working together.   We had a thorough pre game, and decided we were going to rim.  The local college group uses that as its preferred mechanic and he knew I could use the experience using it. 

 

 

I was on the bases , my crew chief behind the plate.

 

in the bot of the 3rd with 2 outs, batter hits a shot to the center right field gap.  CF is speedy and has a play, I know I"m taking that ball, and i get into position, slow down as I can see the center fielder has a play and am stopped when the center fielder dives for the ball his dive takes him towards the outfield wall but he never had his back to me. , I know exactly what I am looking for and all of a sudden I hear my partner say  something  like  balls out" or "balls on the ground"  I don't think he said " no catch"   I'm still looking at the play , waiting, I never saw the ball come out , but I stil hadn't had a catch so I'm still waiting, and then I see the voluntary release and I come up with a huge " That's a catch"

The inning ended and from short rf , i could see the HT Manager question my partner in a very civil way.  No big stink was made, but what would have happened in a closer game.  I could easily see a manger going off on another umpire, and he never came to me at all,

Post game we talked about it, and my partner knew he Mucked  up .

 

Just wanted to see your opinions on what you guys might have done if your partner jumps on your call or something thats your responsibility and you don't agree. For a split second I almost went with my partners call just to back him up, and not have 2 different calls. I'm pretty new to the rim so I'm not as confident as 2 man pro mechanics, and when I heard him say that I thought I might have mucked up MY responsibilities in that situation. 

[noumpere]

Well first let me say that this isnt how I would use the rim.   I would use it on routine balls only and then if they get dropped you still have the play at second.  But on trouble balls you should go out rim or no rim.

 

Second on a double call it belongs to the umpire who had the best look or who most likely had the correct call.  Sounds like that was you and sounds like that might be what the plate umpire told the manager.

[JaxRolo]

What's a RIM

[zm1283]

Ok i was working a tourney this weekend and had a slight hiccup in the semi final game .

18 U

OBR USSSA Rule set

 

I was working with one of our  best umpires on Sunday.   Most seniority,great knowledge, sharpest dressed, really well put together guy.  I've known him for years but this was  our first time working together.   We had a thorough pre game, and decided we were going to rim.  The local college group uses that as its preferred mechanic and he knew I could use the experience using it. 

 

 

I was on the bases , my crew chief behind the plate.

 

in the bot of the 3rd with 2 outs, batter hits a shot to the center right field gap.  CF is speedy and has a play, I know I"m taking that ball, and i get into position, slow down as I can see the center fielder has a play and am stopped when the center fielder dives for the ball his dive takes him towards the outfield wall but he never had his back to me. , I know exactly what I am looking for and all of a sudden I hear my partner say  something  like  balls out" or "balls on the ground"  I don't think he said " no catch"   I'm still looking at the play , waiting, I never saw the ball come out , but I stil hadn't had a catch so I'm still waiting, and then I see the voluntary release and I come up with a huge " That's a catch"

The inning ended and from short rf , i could see the HT Manager question my partner in a very civil way.  No big stink was made, but what would have happened in a closer game.  I could easily see a manger going off on another umpire, and he never came to me at all,

Post game we talked about it, and my partner knew he Mucked  up .

 

Just wanted to see your opinions on what you guys might have done if your partner jumps on your call or something thats your responsibility and you don't agree. For a split second I almost went with my partners call just to back him up, and not have 2 different calls. I'm pretty new to the rim so I'm not as confident as 2 man pro mechanics, and when I heard him say that I thought I might have mucked up MY responsibilities in that situation. 

____________________________________________________________

 

I'm not entirely sure what happened here.  Did you go out from the "A" position for a catch/no-catch?  What do you mean by "rim"?  Rim is usually in 3-man when you take plays from the outside and "rim" around the outside of the infield dirt.  If you went out and he knew it, he screwed up.  In 2-man you should either go out or come inside and let the PU take the catch/no-catch.  

[alex7]

Guy

 

even if you're using the rim, you want to communicate to your partner somehow so he knows if you're out or if you're just rimming.  That way he knows if it's his call to make or not.  Think about giving him a stop sign as you rim next time.  

 

Since he might have said "ball is on the ground" and you had a catch with 2 outs, you can go with your call.  No issue turning a hit call into an out call with 2 outs and no other runners. Had it been the other way around and the "out" call was made first, you'd have a bigger problem over-turning it because of the effect on the runner.

 

So to summarize, be clear on your communication if you're going out (verbal) or if you're just rimming (stop sign).  That said, I don't recommend rimming.

[guyinaredhat]

Just to clarify, I might not be using the right terms here, Our college groups mechanics are slightly different from others.  Biggest exception for 2 man is that when I'm in the A I have ALL fly balls in the U. Base umpire will NEVER go out  on trouble ball to RF.  PU responsibilities are the lines for fair/foul catch no catch, and most of the infield  unless it's coming right at me away from the PU .   When I have the U the PU trails the BR up the line , has touch /no touch at 1b, and has the back door play.  On normal bases hits  it's all pro mechanics.  There's some more differences but this is the most glaring. 

 

Yes it's different, but when in ROME...

[MidAmUmp]

I think I would verify those mechanics with your group and make sure you understand them.  I've never heard of coverages like that.  It doesn't make any sense to me.  The base umpire in A can't take a catch on the LF moving towards centerfield.

 

If you went out, especially with a new partner you've never worked with, communicate you're going out.  Hopefully he'd figure it out.

 

I don't think I've ever had a situation where a double call was made on a fly ball to the outfield.  Bottom line is you need to get the call right, so you'd probably need to huddle up and talk about it.  Just always keep in mind some levels allow you to overturn a catch to a no catch, other's don't (I understand that's not the scenario you had...but for future reference).

[guyinaredhat]

When using this mechanic  when your in A , on a fly ball to the  LF  the BU has to the left of the LF all the way to about the RF, anything  towards the line are the PU's.   Easy " cans of Corn" can be called on the jog,  anything below the waist should be called while slowing down and settling in, and any dives or converging fielders the umpire should be stopped.   The responsibility of the catch no catch goes to the umpire on the bases and the PU stil has an eye on the ball while trailing the runner and watching touch.  When using this the BU should be heading towards 2nd base on the inside of diamond heading towards the cut out . It was also explained that the umpire might also take the fly ball on the outside of the base but I never saw any of the seasoned guys doing this, and I was specifically told  not to do this until I had more experience under me.    It is assumed that the responsibility of the call goes to the BU , unless the PU calls out he's" got the ball/or on the line".  As always communication both verbally and non verbal was addressed at the try out clinic, and scrimmages we worked this year. 

 

I'm still pretty new to umpiring I'm starting my 4th yr overall but really I consider that I'd been doing it right for about 1 year   So learning something new wasn't totally foreign.  I've heard lots of reasoning behind why they do it this way , but it's nothing I'd like to address here . 

[Replacematt]

When using this mechanic  when your in A , on a fly ball to the  LF  the BU has to the left of the LF all the way to about the RF, anything  towards the line are the PU's.   Easy " cans of Corn" can be called on the jog,  anything below the waist should be called while slowing down and settling in, and any dives or converging fielders the umpire should be stopped.   The responsibility of the catch no catch goes to the umpire on the bases and the PU stil has an eye on the ball while trailing the runner and watching touch. 

 

How can BU take a catch in left field from A? He can't.

Why wouldn't you have BU take the RF line from A? He's standing on it.

[UmpTTS43]

Wow!

[BalkHawk]

deleted

[BalkHawk]

 I've heard lots of reasoning behind why they do it this way , but it's nothing I'd like to address here . 

 

You're right. Let us weld reinforcements on this can of worms and bury it under an abandoned nuclear test facility in the middle of the Pacific ocean, never to be seen or heard from again.    

[Richvee]

That's some crazy stuff. Although I will say there are times we will have PU call fair/foul on the RF line even with no runners on. We've got some fields with little or no lines past the bases. PU has a better "line" by lining the fly ball up with the 1st base bag. Pregamed of course..Usually while we're walking up to the field and notice no foul lines past the bag  

[Jocko]

Sounds like you were calling with "Jimmy" :fuel:

[zm1283]

guy,

 

Your group needs to get its hands on some CCA manuals, and do it quick.  Holy balls those are awful mechanics.  Either you're misunderstanding what they're telling you, or you have some real jokers running the show.  What level of college baseball is this?

[zm1283]

When using this mechanic  when your in A , on a fly ball to the  LF  the BU has to the left of the LF all the way to about the RF, anything  towards the line are the PU's.   Easy " cans of Corn" can be called on the jog,  anything below the waist should be called while slowing down and settling in, and any dives or converging fielders the umpire should be stopped.   The responsibility of the catch no catch goes to the umpire on the bases and the PU stil has an eye on the ball while trailing the runner and watching touch.  When using this the BU should be heading towards 2nd base on the inside of diamond heading towards the cut out . It was also explained that the umpire might also take the fly ball on the outside of the base but I never saw any of the seasoned guys doing this, and I was specifically told  not to do this until I had more experience under me.    It is assumed that the responsibility of the call goes to the BU , unless the PU calls out he's" got the ball/or on the line".  As always communication both verbally and non verbal was addressed at the try out clinic, and scrimmages we worked this year. 

 

I'm still pretty new to umpiring I'm starting my 4th yr overall but really I consider that I'd been doing it right for about 1 year   So learning something new wasn't totally foreign.  I've heard lots of reasoning behind why they do it this way , but it's nothing I'd like to address here . 

_______________________________________________________________________________________

 

You should always be stopped on a catch/no-catch call.  The only time I can think of an exception to this is in 3-man when no one goes out and U3 is coming inside from being on the line with no runners on.  Then he would still be responsible for the catch/no-catch but has to be moving at the same time.  

 

I'm not trying to be a dick, but if you don't want these mechanics addressed here, then why post that situation on here?

[guyinaredhat]

Didin't know it would create such back lash.    I don't mind discussing the actual mechanic, but the reasoning behind why they use it is another thing.  I know it's different, but that's what the group uses, my opinion of it is irrevelant.  The assigner handles a big amount of the juco ball, and some non conference div 1 baseball. 

[MidAmUmp]

I think this has gotten off topic.  His question was concerning the double call...not the mechanics.  The mechanics are awful and I would highly recommend them investing in a CCA manual and adhering to it if umpires in that association have a desire to advance to a higher level..............

But, as far as a double call: get together and get the call right, warn and eject as it is warranted, finish the game, change clothes, and head to a local watering hole where all beverages will be on the offending umpire's tab.

[Thunderheads]

I think this has gotten off topic.  His question was concerning the double call...not the mechanics.  The mechanics are awful and I would highly recommend them investing in a CCA manual and adhering to it if umpires in that association have a desire to advance to a higher level..............

But, as far as a double call: get together and get the call right, warn and eject as it is warranted, finish the game, change clothes, and head to a local watering hole where all beverages will be on the offending umpire's tab.

 

[zm1283]

Didin't know it would create such back lash.    I don't mind discussing the actual mechanic, but the reasoning behind why they use it is another thing.  I know it's different, but that's what the group uses, my opinion of it is irrevelant.  The assigner handles a big amount of the juco ball, and some non conference div 1 baseball. 

_____________________________________________________________________________

 

People are reacting to it because no clinic or manual teaches what you're talking about.  In your situation in the OP, your partner screwed up because it sounds like you went out on the play.  If you didn't go out, it is his catch/no-catch.  You haven't really told us if you went out or not though, so it's hard to give you a good answer.  

 

As for the actual mechanic, we told you....It's ridiculous and I have never heard of it.  Why would the BU take all fly balls between F7 and F9 when he is on the line in the A position?  it makes no sense.  

[zm1283]

I think this has gotten off topic.  His question was concerning the double call...not the mechanics.  The mechanics are awful and I would highly recommend them investing in a CCA manual and adhering to it if umpires in that association have a desire to advance to a higher level..............

But, as far as a double call: get together and get the call right, warn and eject as it is warranted, finish the game, change clothes, and head to a local watering hole where all beverages will be on the offending umpire's tab.

_________________________________________

 

It did get off-topic, but I think people were reacting the way they did because the silly mechanics created the double call from what it sounds like.  

 

But I agree, just get together and get it right.  Then hope you don't have to eject the entire coaching staff of the pissed off team.

[Fittske24]

What level of college baseball is this?

 

Clown College

 

[Jocko]

What level of college baseball is this?

 Clown College  

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!! Milk shot out my nose! *Gross*

[guyinaredhat]

THe only thing they change is when the BU is in A, he has all fly ball in the U , just like when there are runners on and the BU starts in the B or C .The reasoning is it allows both umpires to have an eye on the ball and the BU can get as good or better view of the catch no catch then the PU.  The PU still has out fielder playing the ball towards the  line.  It also means the  The PU has all the lines, and the BU wilL Never go out.  Since the BU never goes out the PU wil never take the runnner into 2nd .  Since the PU has touch/no touch at first the BU can head right to  the working area position if the ball drops and the runnner advances. 

 

But back to my question if you have 2 umpires  making a call and ones clearly quicker then the other what would you do.   I could see thi happening with a fly bal with runers on , or 2 umpires at 3rd on a rotation.  I did get some good answers and i have worked enough gsames on how to get together and fix something like this. 

[JaxRolo]

************Notice to New Umpires********************

 

Stay away from this topic/Thread!!!!!!