Where's the line...

[JHSump]

...when a coach is verbally berating a player or his team? Is there a line? Have you ever ejected a coach for verbally abusing a player or his team? Is the line "profanity you hear"? Is the line "profanity you think is loud enough that the fans hear it"? Is profanity not even the key point? Is there a line only in youth games?

Or, is there no line, if he is not talking to you or about you? "There is NO line" is probably an indefensible position, I would think.

[johnnyg08]

...when a coach is verbally berating a player or his team? Is there a line? Have you ever ejected a coach for verbally abusing a player or his team? Is the line "profanity you hear"? Is the line "profanity you think is loud enough that the fans hear it"? Is profanity not even the key point? Is there a line only in youth games?

Or, is there no line, if he is not talking to you or about you? "There is NO line" is probably an indefensible position, I would think.

I would never EJ a coach for berating his own team. That's an administrative decision for the school, league, team, etc...

NOW, some coaches will yell at their players, but are really yelling at the officials. Be aware of that b/c that is a different story.

[spiritump]

what page in the rule book is the rule that gives you the power to step in--without a rule you are acting as a person and not a umpire

[carolinablue]

If you think it's a true problem, report it after the game.

[Dannytheman]

I would take issues of possible emotional abuse to the UIC of the league. But I will not tolerate profanity at a LL coaching level.

When in doubt use 9.01 ©

[Dannytheman]

what page in the rule book is the rule that gives you the power to step in--without a rule you are acting as a person and not a umpire

Uhh, 9.01 © for starters. When I saw a coach grab a kid by the arm, 11 years old, and violently shake him, because he swung at a high pitch? I tossed him and asked the TD to call the cops. There are some things not covered in the rules. Morality isn't mentioned, but it is expected of umpires.

[BRUMP]

what page in the rule book is the rule that gives you the power to step in--without a rule you are acting as a person and not a umpire

Uhh, 9.01 © for starters. When I saw a coach grab a kid by the arm, 11 years old, and violently shake him, because he swung at a high pitch? I tossed him and asked the TD to call the cops. There are some things not covered in the rules. Morality isn't mentioned, but it is expected of umpires.

Danny I completely agree. It may be the coaches player but it is our field. If something that we don't feel comfortable with happens on our field it is our responsibility to take appropriate action.

[spiritump]

what page in the rule book is the rule that gives you the power to step in--without a rule you are acting as a person and not a umpire

Uhh, 9.01 © for starters. When I saw a coach grab a kid by the arm, 11 years old, and violently shake him, because he swung at a high pitch? I tossed him and asked the TD to call the cops. There are some things not covered in the rules. Morality isn't mentioned, but it is expected of umpires.

I think you did the (as a person)right thing by calling the cops as a person you where right.

could of

[spiritump]

what page in the rule book is the rule that gives you the power to step in--without a rule you are acting as a person and not a umpire

Uhh, 9.01 © for starters. When I saw a coach grab a kid by the arm, 11 years old, and violently shake him, because he swung at a high pitch? I tossed him and asked the TD to call the cops. There are some things not covered in the rules. Morality isn't mentioned, but it is expected of umpires.

this is not what th OP was about--what you saw was assult of a child and as a man you did what was rigth did not matter if it was a ball field , school yard, store etc etc in the OP that is a issue for a parent, asst coach, TD, etc.

[Dannytheman]

what page in the rule book is the rule that gives you the power to step in--without a rule you are acting as a person and not a umpire

Uhh, 9.01 © for starters. When I saw a coach grab a kid by the arm, 11 years old, and violently shake him, because he swung at a high pitch? I tossed him and asked the TD to call the cops. There are some things not covered in the rules. Morality isn't mentioned, but it is expected of umpires.

I think you did the (as a person)right thing by calling the cops as a person you where right.

could of

I tossed him from the game as an ump. I ordered the TD to call the cops as an ump and I showed up at the trial as a person. He paid $1400.00 dollars, and he will never coach again.

If I hadn't been an umpire making a ruling, I would have, as a person, kicked his abusive ass!!

[moblue]

I had a situation earlier this year that I wish I had stepped in and said something, but I did not. Thankfully it was not as severe a situation as the one listed above, but the coach, IMO, crossed a major line. His team wasn't doing so hot at some kind of high end tournament, and he took a mound visit. The field was near silent when he got to the mound and started yelling at his team. Where he crossed the line was dropping the f-bomb loud enough for everyone to hear. In retrospect I don't think I should have tossed the coach, but I should have gone to the mound immediately to end that trip. We were on school property, so that kind of language was certainly not acceptable there.

[johnnyg08]

I had a situation earlier this year that I wish I had stepped in and said something, but I did not. Thankfully it was not as severe a situation as the one listed above, but the coach, IMO, crossed a major line. His team wasn't doing so hot at some kind of high end tournament, and he took a mound visit. The field was near silent when he got to the mound and started yelling at his team. Where he crossed the line was dropping the f-bomb loud enough for everyone to hear. In retrospect I don't think I should have tossed the coach, but I should have gone to the mound immediately to end that trip. We were on school property, so that kind of language was certainly not acceptable there.

See, while I agree with you about him screaming "F*#*"...unless tournament rules or the sanctioning body has a rule against profanity, you can't create a rule to eject him just because you don't like the F-bomb that was not directed or implied toward you. That's amateur behavior by an umpire. Don't make up rules to "call something" b/c the tournament staff has put all game management on the umpire. Sometimes they have to initiate the conflict, it's not always all on the umpire(s).

[Jocko]

Had a similar dilemma yesterday. 12u and HT is a monster team. 11 dingers and a salami for the tourney. VT has 1 5 tool player, and he's the only stud. Anyway, VT stud goes down swinging at high cheese and is pissed at himself. No crying or anything, but he's visibly not happy. I'm in "A" and I hear some fussing, so I glance over and outside the fence I hear a thump as the boy's father strikes him in the chest. He then proceeds to grab the kid by the shirt and raise him up to his tip toes and is bitching at him. The gist of what I can hear is "it's baseball. You're gonnna strikeout." The message was correct, but I was appalled at the delivery. VT coaches turned a blind eye, so apparently this is normal behavior.

As an umpire, what authority do I have? (It was outside the confines of the fence)

It's sick and appalling that this man is willing to completely destroy his relationship with his son over a baseball game.

Years ago in rec ball, I stepped in and offered those exact sentiments to a dad who was berating his son (7-8 at the time). Dad turned on me and wanted to fight (he thought he did, anyway). Police were called by parents and he was banned from the park.

Yesterday, not knowing what to do, I did nothing and I am ashamed. I should have done SOMETHING, but what?

"All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing." - Edward Burke

[BRUMP]

Hindsight is always 20/20 but you probably should have reported the father to the police or ACS.

[mstaylor]

I had a situation earlier this year that I wish I had stepped in and said something, but I did not. Thankfully it was not as severe a situation as the one listed above, but the coach, IMO, crossed a major line. His team wasn't doing so hot at some kind of high end tournament, and he took a mound visit. The field was near silent when he got to the mound and started yelling at his team. Where he crossed the line was dropping the f-bomb loud enough for everyone to hear. In retrospect I don't think I should have tossed the coach, but I should have gone to the mound immediately to end that trip. We were on school property, so that kind of language was certainly not acceptable there.

See, while I agree with you about him screaming "F*#*"...unless tournament rules or the sanctioning body has a rule against profanity, you can't create a rule to eject him just because you don't like the F-bomb that was not directed or implied toward you. That's amateur behavior by an umpire. Don't make up rules to "call something" b/c the tournament staff has put all game management on the umpire. Sometimes they have to initiate the conflict, it's not always all on the umpire(s).

Fed wants us to be part of maintaining sportsmanship on the field or court. Whether you toss depends on the situation but it certainly something you need to shut down. I have seen coaches over the line with berating their team but stayed out of it. Language that all can hear has to be shut down. Most of the time it can shut down without an ejection but it can not be allowed.

[Pete Peterson Sr]

Had a similar dilemma yesterday. 12u and HT is a monster team. 11 dingers and a salami for the tourney. VT has 1 5 tool player, and he's the only stud. Anyway, VT stud goes down swinging at high cheese and is pissed at himself. No crying or anything, but he's visibly not happy. I'm in "A" and I hear some fussing, so I glance over and outside the fence I hear a thump as the boy's father strikes him in the chest. He then proceeds to grab the kid by the shirt and raise him up to his tip toes and is bitching at him. The gist of what I can hear is "it's baseball. You're gonnna strikeout." The message was correct, but I was appalled at the delivery. VT coaches turned a blind eye, so apparently this is normal behavior.

As an umpire, what authority do I have? (It was outside the confines of the fence)

It's sick and appalling that this man is willing to completely destroy his relationship with his son over a baseball game.

Years ago in rec ball, I stepped in and offered those exact sentiments to a dad who was berating his son (7-8 at the time). Dad turned on me and wanted to fight (he thought he did, anyway). Police were called by parents and he was banned from the park.

Yesterday, not knowing what to do, I did nothing and I am ashamed. I should have done SOMETHING, but what?

"All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing." - Edward Burke

So how many people did you toss because of it ? :rollinglaugh:

[Pete Peterson Sr]

I had a situation earlier this year that I wish I had stepped in and said something, but I did not. Thankfully it was not as severe a situation as the one listed above, but the coach, IMO, crossed a major line. His team wasn't doing so hot at some kind of high end tournament, and he took a mound visit. The field was near silent when he got to the mound and started yelling at his team. Where he crossed the line was dropping the f-bomb loud enough for everyone to hear. In retrospect I don't think I should have tossed the coach, but I should have gone to the mound immediately to end that trip. We were on school property, so that kind of language was certainly not acceptable there.

See, while I agree with you about him screaming "F*#*"...unless tournament rules or the sanctioning body has a rule against profanity, you can't create a rule to eject him just because you don't like the F-bomb that was not directed or implied toward you. That's amateur behavior by an umpire. Don't make up rules to "call something" b/c the tournament staff has put all game management on the umpire. Sometimes they have to initiate the conflict, it's not always all on the umpire(s).

Fed wants us to be part of maintaining sportsmanship on the field or court. Whether you toss depends on the situation but it certainly something you need to shut down. I have seen coaches over the line with berating their team but stayed out of it. Language that all can hear has to be shut down. Most of the time it can shut down without an ejection but it can not be allowed.

In Alabama, our State Assc. has a hard-and-fast, zero-tolerance policy towards profanity. If it is audible to the people in the stands, and ejection is required. I have heard of two umpires receiving a suspension, because he chose to ignore a loud F-bomb, and a fan called the State to complain about the coaches choice of words. The local association was contacted, and told that the crew that worked the game was suspended. The state merely went into Arbiter to find out who was working the game.

[Jocko]

Had a similar dilemma yesterday. 12u and HT is a monster team. 11 dingers and a salami for the tourney. VT has 1 5 tool player, and he's the only stud. Anyway, VT stud goes down swinging at high cheese and is pissed at himself. No crying or anything, but he's visibly not happy. I'm in "A" and I hear some fussing, so I glance over and outside the fence I hear a thump as the boy's father strikes him in the chest. He then proceeds to grab the kid by the shirt and raise him up to his tip toes and is bitching at him. The gist of what I can hear is "it's baseball. You're gonnna strikeout." The message was correct, but I was appalled at the delivery. VT coaches turned a blind eye, so apparently this is normal behavior.

As an umpire, what authority do I have? (It was outside the confines of the fence)

It's sick and appalling that this man is willing to completely destroy his relationship with his son over a baseball game.

Years ago in rec ball, I stepped in and offered those exact sentiments to a dad who was berating his son (7-8 at the time). Dad turned on me and wanted to fight (he thought he did, anyway). Police were called by parents and he was banned from the park.

Yesterday, not knowing what to do, I did nothing and I am ashamed. I should have done SOMETHING, but what?

"All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing." - Edward Burke

So how many people did you toss because of it ?

just my cookies.... And my self respect

[mstaylor]

I don't think I have ever had that situation while officiating but I have while running tournaments. Youth wrestling is horrible for that type of thing. I stepped between a father and his son once, he was cussing and ripping a kid, probably 11 or 12 yrs old. His wife tried to intervene and he all but smacked her. As he was yelling he grabbed the kid by the shirt. I stepped in on him and strongly suggested he walk away if he didn't want the law brought into it. He was a very muscular 6'6" guy and I was no match for him but I can be very convincing when I need to be.

[LMSANS]

I don't think I have ever had that situation while officiating but I have while running tournaments. Youth wrestling is horrible for that type of thing. I stepped between a father and his son once, he was cussing and ripping a kid, probably 11 or 12 yrs old. His wife tried to intervene and he all but smacked her. As he was yelling he grabbed the kid by the shirt. I stepped in on him and strongly suggested he walk away if he didn't want the law brought into it. He was a very muscular 6'6" guy and I was no match for him but I can be very convincing when I need to be.

He's was probably afraid to hit you because he thought he would break some of your brittle old bones. :angel4:

[mstaylor]

I was hoping for a sympathy vote. :)

[LMSANS]

I was hoping for a sympathy vote.

You have my symapathy...that you're so old and decrepit!

That doesn't say much for me, since we are the same age. :smachhead:

[kylejt]

No need for 9.01©, as unsportsmanlike conduct is a broad enough blanket to throw over most idiots.

I've run across a few morons that, in my opinion, were stepping over the line. A simple "HEY!" in their direction has stopped it every time. It just lets these knuckleheads know that someone else is listening in on their little meltdown.

I did have some guy give me the old "I'm not talking to you" routine.

"You are now, so knock it off".

He did.

You have to know the age group you're working, the neighborhood you're working, and the situation it's occuring in, too. They're all factors on where you draw your own line. But when some adult is getting after a kid, in a way that you think is over the

top

, step in. That's your duty, not as an umpire, but as a human being. 99% of the time these clowns back off once they realize that a real adult is listening in.

Yeah, sometime you just have to umpire, but other times you need to pull up your big boy pants, and make a stand.

[catsbackr]

...when a coach is verbally berating a player or his team? Is there a line? Have you ever ejected a coach for verbally abusing a player or his team? Is the line "profanity you hear"? Is the line "profanity you think is loud enough that the fans hear it"? Is profanity not even the key point? Is there a line only in youth games?

Or, is there no line, if he is not talking to you or about you? "There is NO line" is probably an indefensible position, I would think.

IMHO, start paying attention to things you need to pay attention to. This is not one of them.

If it gets your attention, a firm "KNOCK IT OFF!" is usually all that is needed. Then get your tail back in short right field or go back to counting warmup pitches.

[renegadewolf]

Like most things judgement this is a tricky bit of work in my opinion. I don't put up with unsportsman like behaviors or disruptive behaviors on my field (and yes, when the game is on it is MY field). I understand and have said time and time again that this is a passionate sport, played by passionate people who love winning. You have to expect that a coach is going to verbally berate their players during a game when mistakes are made, things aren't going their way etc and there is nothing we can nor aught do in this type of a situation. There does come a time however where things become abusive, language is peppered with inappropriate words and sportmanship lines are crossed. I have no qualms about telling a coach to knock off his abusive behaviors because he IS effecting the game on both sides and his conduct is unsportsman like. At this point if the shenanigans continue, it's an easy EJ. Of course what passes for inappropriate is a whole new ball of wax, whats is fine for adult ball lots of times is not cool with 10 year olds. Being aware of the atmosphere is one of those "soft" skills you are either well aware of or oblivious to but will be a great guide in how to deal with those situations