Interesting obstruction argument

[Mike Prince]

Had this in a Cal Ripken state tournament game last night. I am PU. R1 and R2 with two outs. On a base hit, R2 gets obstructed as he rounds 3B (F5 is blocking the bag without the ball), he scores without a play. I called "that's obstruction" as soon as I saw it at 3B but waved it off when R2 scored. However, R1 is out at the plate for the third out. OC comes out and wants to talk. He asks why R1 isn't safe as well on the OBS, his stance is that this runner paused between 2B and 3B as he saw R2 being obstructed, so he was in effect also obstructed. How do you respond to this:

1. The OBS only impacts R2 (the runner directly involved), R1 is on his own as the OBS call only applies to a single runner.
   
   
2. Yes, R1 was obstructed but he is only protected to the next base (3B) so any attempted advance beyond that he is at risk.
   
   
3. Something else (please elaborate)
   

For the record, I told the OC that the OBS against R2 was nullified when he scored and that since my OBS call was on R2, R1 was not protected in any way. He asked me to get with my partner to see if he saw any OBS on R1 (which I did and he had nothing on R1) He was fine with the explanation and in my opinion we got this right, just wanted to share and get some feedback on this. IMO the coach handled this perfectly, Me and my partner spoke about this postgame and at the point of the OBS he had the ball, not the runners so he wasn't watching R1. A limitation of the 2-man system I suppose.

If my partner had seen R1 being obstructed by F5 standing on 3B without the ball, we would have had two separate calls, the one I made on R2 and the one my partner would have made on R1 (I had the touch of the base at 3B so I would not have had my eyes on R1). We would have been getting together to see where he protected R1 to. The play at the plate was not that close on R1.

[bam]

"A limitation of the 2-man system I suppose"

There are no limitations in the 2-man. Or so I'm told....

I'd say your explanation #1 is right on, although in #2 IF R1 had been obstructed, he is, indeed, only protected to the next base (in most cases, including this one).

As to #3, I'm curious as to how the OC extrapolated OBS on R1 due to obstruction on R2. Wierd, man.

[Jocko]

HC - R1 should be safe baecause he saw R3 OBS.

HP - Coach there's physical OBS, in some rule sets there's verbal OBS, but I've NEVER in any rule set or format heard of visual OBS by proxy. Nice try.

[cyclonehokiece]

Back to your bucket coach, you have no backing in the rules.

[scrounge]

All kidding aside, this post does bring up an interesting dilemma as to what the proper response would be.

Should you go with:

a - lowering your chin slightly, deadpanning and saying "Seriously?"

or

b - softly chuckling and walking away

:)

[umpcoachfather]

"go away or I'll call intelligence obstruction"

[ring-em-up12]

You can avoid all of this if you don't verbally call obstruction and just signal it. 99% of the time coaches won't even know you have it until the play is over.

[Dragon29]

OBS by proxy

This is my new favorite phrase - I love it!

You can avoid all of this if you don't verbally call obstruction and just signal it. 99% of the time coaches won't even know you have it until the play is over.

Bad idea. Always, always, always verbally call OBS when you see it. Do not get out of that habit; do not make the call 'situational.' It will come back to bite you in a$$ sooner rather than later. Example:

U1: (after a play has ended) You - third base!

DM: Blue, why are you moving that runner to 3rd?

U1: He was obstructed on his way to 2nd.

DM: Really? I didn't see/hear you call anything.

U1: :question1:

[SoCal Lurker]

OBS by proxy

This is my new favorite phrase - I love it!

You can avoid all of this if you don't verbally call obstruction and just signal it. 99% of the time coaches won't even know you have it until the play is over.

Bad idea. Always, always, always verbally call OBS when you see it. Do not get out of that habit; do not make the call 'situational.' It will come back to bite you in a$$ sooner rather than later. Example:

U1: (after a play has ended) You - third base!

DM: Blue, why are you moving that runner to 3rd?

U1: He was obstructed on his way to 2nd.

DM: Really? I didn't see/hear you call anything.

U1:

Also helps prevent the OM from getting frustrated and know that you've got it under conrol. And can let players know they aren't getting away with anything.

[bam]

HC - R1 should be safe baecause he saw R3 OBS.

HP - Coach there's physical OBS, in some rule sets there's verbal OBS, but I've NEVER in any rule set or format heard of visual OBS by proxy. Nice try.

Oh yeah? Well one Mr Paul Emmel would like to disagree:

http://www.seattlepi.com/sports/baseball/article/Mariners-find-a-new-way-to-lose-1151136.php

There's an extended version of this play in the 2012 BRD as well. Emmel blew it but the call stood.

[Jocko]

HC - R1 should be safe baecause he saw R3 OBS.

HP - Coach there's physical OBS, in some rule sets there's verbal OBS, but I've NEVER in any rule set or format heard of visual OBS by proxy. Nice try.

Oh yeah? Well one Mr Paul Emmel would like to disagree:

http://www.seattlepi.com/sports/baseball/article/Mariners-find-a-new-way-to-lose-1151136.php

There's an extended version of this play in the 2012 BRD as well. Emmel blew it but the call stood.

ok. So now I've heard of it being called incorrectly IMO. Still no rule to back it up.

[spiritump]

you are the PU you made the correct call--my question is how can f5 who is at 3rd obstruct a runner who is on second??? why go to your partner???

[noumpere]

Yes the trail runner can be affected by a preceeding runner who was obstructed. So you fix it all to the best of your judgment. Since R1 was out by a lot, then the out stands.

[Jocko]

OBS by proxy

This is my new favorite phrase - I love it!

You can avoid all of this if you don't verbally call obstruction and just signal it. 99% of the time coaches won't even know you have it until the play is over.

Bad idea. Always, always, always verbally call OBS when you see it. Do not get out of that habit; do not make the call 'situational.' It will come back to bite you in a$$ sooner rather than later. Example:

U1: (after a play has ended) You - third base!

DM: Blue, why are you moving that runner to 3rd?

U1: He was obstructed on his way to 2nd.

DM: Really? I didn't see/hear you call anything.

U1:

Just because you didn't see or hear it doesn't mean I don't have it. With all the yelling and cheering and coaching going on, some calls go unnoticed. Prime example is IFF. Just because they don't HEAR me call it doesn't change the facts. I don't yell OBS because once when I did that, play froze. Runner and fielder stopped and looked at me. I became part of the play. I do give a verbal and mechanic, but not loud and only briefly hold it out. If either coach isn't looking at me, they might miss it. If there's alot of yelling, they might not hear it. Doesn't mean I don't have it.

[AZump78]

Guys-let's get back to the issue at hand. You, as the umpire, get to place runners anywhere you want to nullify the OBS.

So just use those terms. Coach, in my judgment, R1 would not have acquired 3rd had the obstruction on R2 not occurred. His award was would have been 2nd base. He proceeded to 3rd at his own peril, and was liable to be put out, which he was. I understand you feel differently, but in this insance we are just going to have to disagree.

He asks you to get help:

No problem, I'll be glad to check with my partner(s) to see if they saw anything different. Why don't you go on back to the dugout, we'll get together, and see what the census is.

[AZump78]

Good topic though. Interesting argument indeed. If you saw it the way the coach did, you could absolutely put him on 3rd.

[noumpere]

I don't yell OBS because once when I did that, play froze. Runner and fielder stopped and looked at me.

Once? lol.

Put me in the camp of calling it loudly -- not in the sense of screaiming it to get everyone to stop but loud enough for all to hear if they choose to.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Not the umpire's fault that play stopped when Obstruction called. The mechanic is to point at the obstruction and say in a loud voice (one time) "That's Obstruction." If you are calling Type B Obstruction, then play should not stop because of this call. If it does, that's their problem, not yours.

And why are we using the FED mechanic of holding the arm out to the side? It's a ridiculous mechanic, and should only be used for FED baseball. Cal Ripken and such leagues in that genre are OBR-based rules, so don't use the FED BS mechanic.

[Replacematt]

Had this in a Cal Ripken state tournament game last night. I am PU. R1 and R2 with two outs. On a base hit, R2 gets obstructed as he rounds 3B (F5 is blocking the bag without the ball), he scores without a play. I called "that's obstruction" as soon as I saw it at 3B but waved it off when R2 scored. However, R1 is out at the plate for the third out. OC comes out and wants to talk. He asks why R1 isn't safe as well on the OBS, his stance is that this runner paused between 2B and 3B as he saw R2 being obstructed, so he was in effect also obstructed. How do you respond to this:

1. The OBS only impacts R2 (the runner directly involved), R1 is on his own as the OBS call only applies to a single runner.
   
   
2. Yes, R1 was obstructed but he is only protected to the next base (3B) so any attempted advance beyond that he is at risk.
   
   
3. Something else (please elaborate)
   

For the record, I told the OC that the OBS against R2 was nullified when he scored and that since my OBS call was on R2, R1 was not protected in any way. He asked me to get with my partner to see if he saw any OBS on R1 (which I did and he had nothing on R1) He was fine with the explanation and in my opinion we got this right, just wanted to share and get some feedback on this. IMO the coach handled this perfectly, Me and my partner spoke about this postgame and at the point of the OBS he had the ball, not the runners so he wasn't watching R1. A limitation of the 2-man system I suppose.

If my partner had seen R1 being obstructed by F5 standing on 3B without the ball, we would have had two separate calls, the one I made on R2 and the one my partner would have made on R1 (I had the touch of the base at 3B so I would not have had my eyes on R1). We would have been getting together to see where he protected R1 to. The play at the plate was not that close on R1.

Hmmm...

1 is incorrect, because OBS can involve second- and third-order effects. 2 is incorrect, because there isn't enough info to determine if and how R1 was affected. So, I guess that leaves 3.

[mstaylor]

I'm with Matt and Mr. Brown, a trail runner can be affected by a lead runner's obstruction. I'm not saying the coach is right in this case, third is probably the best answer. You said your partner wasn't watching R1 round second, he needs to, that's his job. You didn't say where the ball was hit but it had to be somewhere in the V. All he has to do is rotate to put the runner between him and the ball.

To prove this obstruction contention, R2 rounds third and is knocked down by F5. Obviously you are going to protect him home. However when got knocked down, R1 was on his horse and rounds second aggressively. When he sees the runner go down he stops and either returns to second or gets tagged out. Even if the R3 is able to get up and score, it only means that he reached his protected base, it doesn't mean the obstruction has been nullified. On the other side of the coin, a trail runner is not automaticly getting a protected base. This is something that you have to just umpire.

[Jocko]

Well put MST. He doesn't automatically get protection, but the OBS has to be nullified. Good point, spoken eloquently. +5

[umpire_scott]

OBS by proxy

This is my new favorite phrase - I love it!

You can avoid all of this if you don't verbally call obstruction and just signal it. 99% of the time coaches won't even know you have it until the play is over.

Bad idea. Always, always, always verbally call OBS when you see it. Do not get out of that habit; do not make the call 'situational.' It will come back to bite you in a$$ sooner rather than later. Example:

U1: (after a play has ended) You - third base!

DM: Blue, why are you moving that runner to 3rd?

U1: He was obstructed on his way to 2nd.

DM: Really? I didn't see/hear you call anything.

U1:

U1: My left arm went out signaling delayed dead as soon as I saw it coach.

[Dragon29]

OBS by proxy

This is my new favorite phrase - I love it!

You can avoid all of this if you don't verbally call obstruction and just signal it. 99% of the time coaches won't even know you have it until the play is over.

Bad idea. Always, always, always verbally call OBS when you see it. Do not get out of that habit; do not make the call 'situational.' It will come back to bite you in a$$ sooner rather than later. Example:

U1: (after a play has ended) You - third base!

DM: Blue, why are you moving that runner to 3rd?

U1: He was obstructed on his way to 2nd.

DM: Really? I didn't see/hear you call anything.

U1:

U1: My left arm went out signaling delayed dead as soon as I saw it coach.

Scott,

That's not a mechanic used in this area; I should know - I tried (because someone told me it would be a good idea) and was stopped by my association.

To each ther ir own, but I still wouldn't teach it.

[Stan W.]

I understand you feel differently, but in this insance we are just going to have to disagree.

This is a great sentence to learn and use in many situations......I owuld only add one more short line..."now lets play!"

[24sdad]

I'm with Matt and Mr. Brown, a trail runner can be affected by a lead runner's obstruction. I'm not saying the coach is right in this case, third is probably the best answer. You said your partner wasn't watching R1 round second, he needs to, that's his job. You didn't say where the ball was hit but it had to be somewhere in the V. All he has to do is rotate to put the runner between him and the ball.

To prove this obstruction contention, R2 rounds third and is knocked down by F5. Obviously you are going to protect him home. However when got knocked down, R1 was on his horse and rounds second aggressively. When he sees the runner go down he stops and either returns to second or gets tagged out. Even if the R3 is able to get up and score, it only means that he reached his protected base, it doesn't mean the obstruction has been nullified. On the other side of the coin, a trail runner is not automaticly getting a protected base. This is something that you have to just umpire.

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=18094325&c_id=mlb (I hope this works)

Similar to what Michael is talking about. In this case the crew did not award the un-obstructed runner the next base, but I think it clearly demonstrates a situation where you possibly could.

I remembered this play from watching it a while ago and tried to find it by doing a search on "obstruction Choo," which produced no results. Then figured they probably have it as "interference," which did work. Silly me.