Appeal question

[kylejt]

Bottom of the last inning, one out, bases loaded, and the score is tied. BR hits game winning base hit to the outfield. The BR touches first, and R3 crosses the plate. Joy ensues.The ball is tossed back toward the mound.

Then the fun begins. After the PU sees R3 cross the plate, and waits a couple of seconds, raises his hands to end the game, and starts heading out with his partner. All the while keeping his ears and eyes open because, you guessed it, R3 never touched the plate.

Sure enough, folks started shouting before all the defenders leave fair territory, and the defense wants to appeal it. So, the pitcher gets the ball, and with all the defensive players in place, the PU says "play!", the pitcher steps off properly, and the ball goes to the catcher. "OUT!" says the PU. Fair enough, right?

Oh that's easy. Now comes the kicker. F2 now throws it down to F4, and now the appeal that R1 never touched second. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!. Now what!?

Here's the question: Before the ball is put into play, should the umpires have required the runners to be on base? Now I know a batter is not required in this situation, but how about the original runners.

(Please don't apply some hair brained FED rules. OBR, fellas)

[carolinablue]

I may be way off but I don't think the ball is dead here. It was a base hit so still a live ball. The winning run scored but the defense still has the right to appeal up to the point that all fielders have left fair territory. I don't think it's a dead ball just because the game appeared to be over.

[johnnyg08]

I wouldn't put the runner(s) back. No point to that. Let them appeal, make your calls and go home.

[noumpere]

After the PU sees R3 cross the plate, and waits a couple of seconds, raises his hands to end the game,

WTF?

Oh that's easy. Now comes the kicker. F2 now throws it down to F4, and now the appeal that R1 never touched second. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!. Now what!?

Well, rule on that play and any other appeals which happen.

I wouldn't put the runner(s) back. No point to that. Let them appeal, make your calls and go home.

Cant go home the game is tied at least as I read the play.

[kylejt]

As soon as R3 crosses the plate, and no play is actively being made on his return, he's considered to have attained it, right? So the PU casually put up his hands, rightly or wrongly, to terminate further procedings, and facilitate his departure. THEN the word got shouted around about R3 missing the plate. So the ball was indeed dead.

So the real question revolves around requiring the baserunners to be put back on the bases prior to any appeal being started. I know you don't need a new batter in the box, to make the ball live.

[mstaylor]

First of all, the PU has no business killing the ball. The end of the game is just like the end of an inning, you don't kill the ball. Next, the umpire needs to let play finish before he does anything. Once it does, get the hell out of Dodge. If the defense wants to appeal before they leave, let them. As far as runners are concerned, they should have never left and I would say they are on their own because the ball should have been left live.

[kylejt]

I know he shouldn't have killed it, you know he shouldn't have killed it. But he did. (I guess I could make up some dead ball situation, like the ball hitting an umpire on the infield)

So, should the runners have been required to be on the bases, before the ball was put back in play, for the appeal?

[mstaylor]

I would think so, which would kill off the second appeal but you would still get the miss at home.

[kylejt]

Come on, fellas.

If you don't put the runners back, and call the out at the plate, you've got two outs, and 3 runners sitting the dugout.

You guys answer all the "softball" questions with gusto. But when a good one comes along, lots of guys take a powder.

[JamesC]

I'm a FED guy for the most part, but I'll throw in my two cents.

I agree with a couple things already said. I wouldn't raise my hands and end the game. Game is over - everyone should be aware of what just happened in this regard. With that said, I would handle the situation just like any other game that had just ended. No reason to give any indication to the defense that he missed the plate. But, as originally posted, I would keep my ears to the ground listening for any such appeal talk.

Now, with this said, I would grant the appeal of the plate, but I would not put the runner back on first base. If you put the runner back on first base (and assume the runner did miss the base initially), how can you legitimately argue that he never touched the base if he is standing on it?!

I have 3 outs, playing extras (unfortunately)!

[Thunderheads]

OK Kyle ....it's been way more than 24 hours .......... OUT WITH IT! :)

[noumpere]

Who messed up? The offense by not touching all the bases. Im not going to bail them out by putting them back on the bases but then again Im not going to kill the ball at the end of the game

[NoCal Blue]

Bottom of the last inning, one out, bases loaded, and the score is tied. BR hits game winning base hit to the outfield. The BR touches first, and R3 crosses the plate. Joy ensues.The ball is tossed back toward the mound.

Then the fun begins. After the PU sees R3 cross the plate, and waits a couple of seconds, raises his hands to end the game, and starts heading out with his partner. All the while keeping his ears and eyes open because, you guessed it, R3 never touched the plate.

As you state in the OP this is OBR and I have a couple of things. The PU certainly kicked it.....hard. That said, by OBR, the game is over and no appeal can be made. The only recourse is for the team in question to protest before the umpires leave the field.

Here is the applicable rules which based on the PU actions are now in conflict..

4.10

(a) A regulation game consists of nine innings, unless extended because of a tie score, or shortened (1) because the home team needs none of its half of the ninth inning or only a fraction of it, or (2) because the umpire-in-chief calls the game.

EXCEPTION: National Association leagues may adopt a rule providing that one or both games of a doubleheader shall be seven innings in length. In such games, any of these rules applying to the ninth inning shall apply to the seventh inning.

Rule 4.09

When the winning run is scored in the last half-inning of a regulation game, or in the last half of an extra inning, as the result of a base on balls, hit batter or any other play with the bases full which forces the runner on third to advance, the umpire shall not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has touched home base and the batter-runner has touched first base.

Rule 4.09 Comment: An exception will be if fans rush onto the field and physically prevent the runner from touching home plate or the batter from touching first base. In such cases, the umpires shall award the runner the base because of the obstruction by the fans.

So...the original question is still pending. What do you do? By rule, the game is over and no appeal can be made. Since you can't restart a game after it's over, the only recourse is for the team in question to protest based on illegal action by the PU. Regardless of what your opinions are on this, if the managers of these teams were familiar with the rules (which doesn't seem to be the case here), this game would have ended in protest no matter what the decision.

Now, before all of you start having a meltdown, I would not have ended the game if faced with the same situation. The OP suggests that the PU knew something was up. To negate his illegal act, he should have put the runners back on before putting the ball back in play. This results in two outs and the game continues. Either way, the PU is going to have to eat crow and as I said, if the managers were well versed this game should have ended in protest no matter what you do.

[Rich Ives]

Bottom of the last inning, one out, bases loaded, and the score is tied. BR hits game winning base hit to the outfield. The BR touches first, and R3 crosses the plate. Joy ensues.The ball is tossed back toward the mound.

Then the fun begins. After the PU sees R3 cross the plate, and waits a couple of seconds, raises his hands to end the game, and starts heading out with his partner. All the while keeping his ears and eyes open because, you guessed it, R3 never touched the plate.

As you state in the OP this is OBR and I have a couple of things. The PU certainly kicked it.....hard. That said, by OBR, the game is over and no appeal can be made. The only recourse is for the team in question to protest before the umpires leave the field.

Here is the applicable rules which based on the PU actions are now in conflict..

4.10

(a) A regulation game consists of nine innings, unless extended because of a tie score, or shortened (1) because the home team needs none of its half of the ninth inning or only a fraction of it, or (2) because the umpire-in-chief calls the game.

EXCEPTION: National Association leagues may adopt a rule providing that one or both games of a doubleheader shall be seven innings in length. In such games, any of these rules applying to the ninth inning shall apply to the seventh inning.

Rule 4.09

When the winning run is scored in the last half-inning of a regulation game, or in the last half of an extra inning, as the result of a base on balls, hit batter or any other play with the bases full which forces the runner on third to advance, the umpire shall not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has touched home base and the batter-runner has touched first base.

Rule 4.09 Comment: An exception will be if fans rush onto the field and physically prevent the runner from touching home plate or the batter from touching first base. In such cases, the umpires shall award the runner the base because of the obstruction by the fans.

So...the original question is still pending. What do you do? By rule, the game is over and no appeal can be made. Since you can't restart a game after it's over, the only recourse is for the team in question to protest based on illegal action by the PU. Regardless of what your opinions are on this, if the managers of these teams were familiar with the rules (which doesn't seem to be the case here), this game would have ended in protest no matter what the decision.

Now, before all of you start having a meltdown, I would not have ended the game if faced with the same situation. The OP suggests that the PU knew something was up. To negate his illegal act, he should have put the runners back on before putting the ball back in play. This results in two outs and the game continues. Either way, the PU is going to have to eat crow and as I said, if the managers were well versed this game should have ended in protest no matter what you do.

JEA says the OBR interp is that only the BR and R3 need advance on an award but if the ball is hit into play then all runners have to advance. That is NOT reflected in the MLBUM. Merkle was out for failure to advance but it was not a bases loaded situation. Officially cloudy.

[NoCal Blue]

Rich,

OP states bases loaded w/ 1 out.

[Rich Ives]

Rich,

OP states bases loaded w/ 1 out.

And JEA says all forced runners must advance on a ball hit into play - bases loaded or not.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Merkle was out for failure to advance but it was not a bases loaded situation. Officially cloudy.

I understand it was quite a boner! :wow:

[kylejt]

What happened was the orginal appeal of the missed plate was allowed and called, with no runners on base. THEN, the ball went to second, and the appeal that R1 didn't touch was made. Lots of headscratching ensued, and the local protest committee thought the logical/fair thing to do was to allow the appeal at the plate, put the runners back, and continue play with two outs.

This was in the eighth inning of a scoreless LL Majors game. It went 10, before a walkoff HR.

And yeah, I reenforced the idea of never, ever ending a game with possible appeals on the table with those umpires after the game. Just walk off, as you're observing and listening to everything going on. Lots of lessons learned by that crew.

[Rich Ives]

Assinine. If the ball had never been dead would you put the runners back before the appeal? Of courser not. So why do it now? They screwed up. Too F bad.

[kylejt]

If you don't put the runners back, after the appeal at the plate, you'd have call all the other runners out, right? I mean, they're not on the bases, and there are now two outs and a live ball.

[NoCal Blue]

The more I read this the more I'm thinking HTBT. If the runners left the field (not touching the bases) because the PU called the game then the only way to negate that action is to put them back on. If it was unclear as to the PU's actions then Rich has a point.

These situations are great case studies and teaching examples. :nod:

[Jocko]

Total screw up. The protest committee probably did the FAIR thing, but not necessarily the by the book thing. He declared the game over. The ball can't become live in a game that's officially completed. Geez. This one sucks. I think it has to be protested due to HP error. Ok they grant the appeal with runners NOT on. Now you can call them out for abandonment. It gets uglier and uglier. Wow this guy tanked. Hate to say it about a brother in blue. Coulda woulda shoulda. There but by the grace of God go I.

[JHSump]

Given all the discussion above, it appears one should not explicitly declare the game ended on a walk-off HR, hit, walk, etc., when you see an appeal possibility arise (e.g., R3 misses the plate). But, declaring a game over is the usual practice --- and even mentioned in 4.09( b ). Won't not declaring a game over be a clear hint to the defense that an appeal will work? This hint will be especially strong when a team has seen you umpire a game where such an occurrence happens.

On the other hand, when a BR overruns 1B, and misses the bag --- but beats the throw --- aren't we supposed to declare the runner safe, and out only on appeal?

Are these two umpire actions in conflict?

[noumpere]

But, declaring a game over is the usual practice

No, it's not at least not by calling time, or declaring "ball game" or several other things I've seen over the years.

Now if you want to interpret walking off the field as declaring the game over then fine.

[JHSump]

Hmmm.... I don't see how just walking off works in practice in all situations. Enlighten me. I am willing to change my ways!

In the bottom of the last inning, or an extra inning -- and HT scores the winning run --- sure, I can just walk off in this case. Everyone should know it's over, so I don't have to say anything in this case. And, in the bottom of the last inning when the HT fails to score enough runs to tie or win the game, again I can just walk off.

But I typically verbally declare the game over in the following circumstances. What should I do instead?

1) Rain ends the game. We've been waiting out a shower/storm and the field is now unplayable. I go to the coaches and tell them it's over.

2) Time runs out in the bottom of some inning when the HT is leading (in a game where no new inning starts after some time limit). I call "Time" then say the time limit has expired then walk off --- the statement about the time limit having expired is the declaration that the game is over.

3) A mercy rule comes into play. The HT scores the final run that ends the game. I guess I could just walk off, since everyone should know it's now over. But I can easily see coaches asking me if it's over when I and my partner head toward the exit. Do I answer them or just walk off?