Balk?!?!

James Walker · May 31, 2012

Had a 14u game today. Between innings, the ac comes to ask me something about a balk. He said that F3 had a foot outside the baseline when he's holding R1 on. I told him it wasn't a balk, just a no don't do that. He started to argue so I shut it up. He goes to the dugout and thats that. Next half, he comes out again, with his cell phone out, and I'm counting warm ups. He says to me, blue, I found it in the rules. And its says that if F1 throws a pitch, F2 catches it and F3 still has his foot outside the line its a balk. I say, that's nice, now, go to the parking lot. And dumped him. My question is, is that the rule? If it is please cite the rule so I can look it up. Probably just a rat trying to get his way, but I'd be nice to know if he was telling the truth.

sdix00 · May 31, 2012

I assume this was an OBR game.

I would have said, "I'll be happy to have an academic discussion after the game, but you did not find that rule."

The academic discussion goes like this:

If he finds me after the game I would simply ask him how confident he was that he was right. If he says 100%, then I would say "that sounds like a great opportunity for you to win some money off of me. How much money would you like to bet and win?"

UmpJM · May 31, 2012

redneck_ump,

You DUMPED him?!!? For WHAT? In a 14U game - lah, me.

Personally, I don't think I'd have been able to resist entertaining THAT discussion. And I imagine it would have been very "entertaining".

So, why did you eject him?

JM

P.S. You are correct - it is not a balk.

James Walker · May 31, 2012

UmpJM

He downloaded the OBR to his phone. So basically, he brought the rulebook on the field. And hes an assiastant coach. So, to the parking lot he went.

UmpJM · May 31, 2012

redneck_ump,

Do you know WHY bringing a rulebook on the field is considered an "automatic" ejection at some levels?

It's because it's considered intentionally "showing up" the umpire - because you're flapping around a rulebook where everyone can see it, implying that the umpire doesn't know the rules and has to be educated by the coach.

Hey, if he was being a jerk about it, by all means, dump him. But a 14U game doesn't have the same "rules of engagement" as a pro game or an NCAA game.

I would have expressed my disbelief - my shock - my incredulity - that he had found such a rule. I would have had him SHOW me the rule - especially the part about where it says "...if the F3 still has his foot outside the line when F2 catches the pitch..." - because there's nothing even remotely close to that in ANY rule code. (Yes, I'm sure.) Then I would have embarrassed him about "making stuff up" and delaying the game. Then I would have sent him to the dugout - unless he started to give me attitude. THEN I would have dumped him.

The OBR rule the AC found was 4.03. He confused ( a ) and ( c). Professional interpretation is that c is ignored unless someone complains. Then it is strictly enforced for both teams. The penalty for repeated (willful) violation is ejection - never a balk.

Under FED rules it's explicitly legal for a fielder to have one foot fair and one foul.

JM

James Walker · May 31, 2012

I get that he gets more rope cause its 14u. But when he came to discuss it earlier, i explained it to him twice, i could see he didnt get the message. So i warned him. When he came back out to discuss again, i dont know if he was trying to show me up or not, but i was not, but I was not giving him the chance. I had given him the stop sign and said that enough. I will admit that it amused me that he downloaded it to his phone. But it was his time to go.

I looked over every balk rule I could find. Came up with the same rule cites as you. It's going to be a lot if fun Friday night, got the same two teams again.

Forest Ump · May 31, 2012

Sounds like a good ejection to me.

spiritump · May 31, 2012

dump the RAT he has to learn how to act as a coach.

renegadewolf · May 31, 2012

I don't care if it is a 10-u game, the second a coach thinks its a good idea to bring rules onto my diamond to show me I am wrong, he gets a warning to get it off my diamond and if he isn't turned around in about a flat second, he will then know bringing a rule book onto my field is unacceptable. (especially after having told him twice to knock it off as you did) Understand I don't say to the coach this is my diamond, I only use it here as a point of emphasis. Perfectly good dump in my book. Then again, all I tcall is OBR games up here in the great white north and I am totally unfamilliar with FED and NCAA rules sets... I just goes with the contxt i understand...;)

Thunderheads · May 31, 2012

The ONLY way I will be willing to look at anything on the field is if the coach/manager politely asks if he can show me, or if he can look it up and we can discuss between innings. ONLY THEN would it be ok.

This, in my opinion is a HTBT situation ....if he's being an a$$ dump him...

umpcoachfather · May 31, 2012

Again, see anything realted to idiotic 10 year old coaches and apply all to here. I agree with sdix, except I'd ask for the title to his car if it was nice or the value of his home, cause that's what we are betting.

Rich Ives · May 31, 2012

Manager announces a protest.

Would you look it up then or insist on waiting?

Thunderheads · May 31, 2012

Coach: I'm playing under protest

Me: Great coach, what are you protesting

DONE ....

Different sitch Rich ....I was stricly referring to the OP

Rich Ives · June 1, 2012

You capitalized, bolded. and undeerscored "only" and "anything" now you're saying you didn't really mean "only" and "anything"?

OK. Sure.

Jocko · June 1, 2012

The second it became evident he was bringing me the rule book he's history. No warning, no discussion. Instant Adios, Amigo. No matter the age group. I do everything from HSV-9u. No difference. He can discuss rules with me after the game if he wishes, but NEVER while I'm on the field. HC can politely inquire as to the rule, but not a discussion. And No, not a balk.

Thunderheads · June 1, 2012

Rich, why do you take any chance you get to be a dick? I just don't get it?

And how is my response to your last post inferring that I " didn't really mean" it?

bam · June 1, 2012

Fine, coach. The game is being played under protest. Now go to the parking lot. You can also protest the ejection if you like. And the color of my shirt.

LMSANS · June 1, 2012

Fine, coach. The game is being played under protest. Now go to the parking lot. You can also protest the ejection if you like. And the color of my shirt.

Color of your shirt is a judgement call...no protest allowed... :wave:

Welpe · June 1, 2012

Unless it is red, then the protest will be upheld for lack of umpire taste.

Forest Ump · June 1, 2012

I was having my morning coffee. You owe me a keyboard :smachhead:

Rich Ives · June 1, 2012

Because you made a big generalized emphasized statement about not being willing to look at a book unless asked politely or between innings then when asked about a protest you said basically "that's a different thing". So to me it logically follows that you thus didn't really mean the big generalized emphasized statement. Perhaps its too Mr. Spock of me but that's how I saw it.

SanDiegoSteve · June 1, 2012

Actually it sounds more like Dr. Spock than Mr. Spock...a bunch of psychobabble. :)

Thunderheads · June 1, 2012

Rich, I clarified that the situation you suggested is different than the OP. And, I will say again in a more detailed way thus not to confuse. In the "protest" scenario you spell out, the situation I discussed (OP) has already passed, and the "protest" situation would be the next event following a discussion w/ any rulebook and/or agree/disagreement.

Moreso, ... I'll discuss anything with anyone when done with respect. But if some RAT comes storming out of the dugout after an explanation and waves his rulebook at me ...we're going to have a problem.

You made an assumption about my comment ...........

Jocko · June 1, 2012

where I call, mgr can't just "announce" a protest. He has to put $300 cash in my hand to file his protest. I've only had 1 in my career. No $ no prottest. Win the protest, get your $ back. Lose, and it goes in the gate box.

Jocko · June 1, 2012

Again I will state.... Do NOT let a coach ask you to look at the rule book ON THE FIELD. Time and place. This ain't it. He can work himself into a frenzy in the DG with the book all he wants. DO NOT EVER bring it on the field. Between games, sure coach I'll SHOW you the rule. During the game, NEVER. Protest if you like, but you're gonna lose some cash and face. I will give my abbreviated interpretation duuring the game, but not a long discussion and will not delay the game to talk about it. Protest or play. Put up or shut up.

Balk?!?!

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