No Tag vs Safe

[Guest]

Right, because coaches, players, and spectators determine proper umpire mechanics. :rolleyes:

[Fittske24]

The only call that should be made quickly is the one to suspend the game when lightning is in the area. :)

[catsbackr]

Like semper said,

Timing...Timing...Timing

[BillB1960]

Right, because coaches, players, and spectators determine proper umpire mechanics.

So then I take it you've never heard the term "expected call" when it comes to umpiring. You would never stoop to "selling a call" on a close play. C'mon, umpiring is more of an art than a science and all successful umpires know what it takes to keep themselves out of trouble and keep coaches & players in the game. How many times have you seen coaches get so frustrated with poor umpiring that they end up throwing themselves out of the game? I'm not talking about disregarding rules or mechanics but in the past 3 HS & summer ball seasons I've had exactly 1 EJ and he is a well known rat HC. Sure I've made mistakes, sure coaches have come out on me but game mangement includes handling conflict and the less conflict you have the less you have to handle. Making unexpected. unnatural calls in the name of "proper" mechanics is a sure way to get people riled up and watching your every move. I'm not there to be the center of attention and if I am then I've done something wrong.

[mstaylor]

Bill:

I agree 1000% that you need to umpire for the level you are working. Also that game management is a huge part of successful umpiring. Where I am getting confused is what unexpected are you referencing? I thought we were talking about safe/outs and the timing of them. You have to watch the play all the way through, something may blow up. This is how we have been taught by pro clinics or schools.

[BillB1960]

Bill:

I agree 1000% that you need to umpire for the level you are working. Also that game management is a huge part of successful umpiring. Where I am getting confused is what unexpected are you referencing? I thought we were talking about safe/outs and the timing of them. You have to watch the play all the way through, something may blow up. This is how we have been taught by pro clinics or schools.

Absolutely true. All of the pro clinics and schools I've gone to stress the importance of timing and not making a call too soon. They were all done by Jim Evans, his instructors or based on his material. The point I was making is that once beyond the basics of Pause, Read, React there are advanced concepts which is where the reality that not all calls use the same timing is discussed. Safe calls are usually quicker because the play is over more quickly. Waiting to make the Safe call because you waited to make the Out call is incorrect and looks bad. Calls on players sliding into a base take longer to finish than routine throws to a base because more stuff can happen. Timing safe/out calls just like balls & strike depends on the eyes not artificial timing mechanisms.

When I made the calls at 3B I had two distinct seperate plays. I had an attempted tag at the base that needed a call and then I had runner oversilde and successful tag that needed a call. R5 missed the tag but had he made it there would've been an out assuming he held on to the ball. He missed it so it needed a quick Safe call. After the runner overslid R5 recovered and tagged him for the out. I had time to lean & look to make sure the runner wasn't touching the bag and F5 held on to the ball before signalling the Out.

Anyway, thanks for the opinions.

[mstaylor]

I can see your play at third being two calls or one, depending on speed of the play. I would be inclinded to wait and make one call but if it unfolds slowly I can see two calls.

[yawetag]

If you're making any call, safe or out, on a play at a base BEFORE the runner even stops sliding, I'd say you're probably making your calls too quickly.

[Umpete]

If you're making any call, safe or out, on a play at a base BEFORE the runner even stops sliding, I'd say you're probably making your calls too quickly.

But isn't this really TWO plays??? Calling safe on the missed tag indicates you saw it and it was missed. That's the first play. The second play was the tag for the out because of the overslide. I have actually seen this exact call made at the professional level on a steal of second. The umpire made 2 calls. I can't remember the game or I would find the video.

[yawetag]

If you want to make two calls on this situation, that's fine. Keep in mind though that it could appear that you're making two calls on the same play.

[noumpere]

I have actually seen this exact call made at the professional level on a steal of second.

And I have actually seen a batter awarded first opn ball three twice at the professional level but that doesnt mean I'd teach it or try to do that.

[catsbackr]

Here's a good picture that kind of demonstrates timing.

2009 Tennessee HS State Tournament

I know, it's not a very good picture, but that's the only picture I saw of me during the tournament. 3rd baseman missed the tag, watched runner overslide the bag and was tagged out. Only one mechanic, an out call.

[yawetag]

And that's my point. If you're already calling safe in this situation, your timing is too fast.

[NCAAump2]

Andrew, you ARE making two calls on the same play. First is the missed tag attempt on the runner, and then you have the overslide and the applied tag for the out. Two calls that require two different signals. It shows that you saw both parts, I don't think it shows you are indecisive or change your mind at all.

[catsbackr]

Andrew, you ARE making two calls on the same play. First is the missed tag attempt on the runner, and then you have the overslide and the applied tag for the out. Two calls that require two different signals. It shows that you saw both parts, I don't think it shows you are indecisive or change your mind at all.

Agreed, you are making 2 calls on the same play. However, one of the calls is unnecessary. In the OP, the play as described was a quick one. If you're in position, see the no tag and then the overslide, just make the out call. Your positioning shows you saw both parts. A safe and then an out call? No, slow down and just make the out call.

And, the out call would very relaxed.

[Thunderheads]

I'm suprised I haven't seen ... HTBT on this one ....and in most cases, it is one of these.

A MISSED tag could draw a safe call, ....but what if there really wasn't a true tag attempt and F3 just watches him slide by him knowing he's going to get him coming back to the bag .... again, ...HTBT

Sometimes also, ...you have a real simple steal of 2nd, ....runner goes in standing up, ...F4 puts tag on late ...nothing seems to be happening, and you relax a safe call, ...then the runner loses balance and comes off the base, ...F4 maintains the tag ..."now he's out!" Then you'd have 2 calls for sure...

Timing is very important yes, ....but, ...it's really tough to judge this without seeing it sometimes......

[yawetag]

Andrew, you ARE making two calls on the same play. First is the missed tag attempt on the runner, and then you have the overslide and the applied tag for the out. Two calls that require two different signals. It shows that you saw both parts, I don't think it shows you are indecisive or change your mind at all.

Did you look at the picture? F5 is still attempting the tag. If you're making a safe call here, you're going to be making it about the time the tag is made on the overslide. It's going to look bad if you're making a safe call and then IMMEDIATELY making an out call.

[catsbackr]

Oh, and as far as the positioning in the attached picture, it was a 6-man crew.

[Thunderheads]

Oh, and as far as the positioning in the attached picture, it was a 6-man crew.

Sweet pic by the way!!! :notworthy:

[yawetag]

Case in point on how bad it looks: http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=16862053

Two words: SLOW. DOWN.

[NFUA_44]

If F5 is chasing down the R2 to apply a tag on an overslide didn't he just tell everyone that he didn't tag him?

Just Sayin

[BillB1960]

Case in point on how bad it looks: http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=16862053

Two words: SLOW. DOWN.

I can assure you that's not how my calls looked and not how fast the play happened.

[BillB1960]

If F5 is chasing down the R2 to apply a tag on an overslide didn't he just tell everyone that he didn't tag him?

Just Sayin

Not necessarily. Players routinely 'chase' a runner even if they've made a tag but it's late. In the OP the attempted tag was made as the runner was sliding. It needed a call.

[UmpTTS43]

Again, if a runner is sliding into a base you wait until the entire play is over and make one call.

[ukce1861]

When is it proper to use No Tag which looks a lot like a Safe call?

...

I don't think my timing was bad but it may have appeared that it was. Opinions?

Bill,

No offense, but you came on here asking for opinions on your call on a particular play and have since, stridently defended your call. You asked two questions in your original post which have been answered fairly consistently by numerous participants and yet you continue to rebuff all comers. What was the point of your original post - to obtain reassurance? Don't ask a question if you don't want the right answer.