No Tag vs Safe

[BillB1960]

When is it proper to use No Tag which looks a lot like a Safe call? Here's why I ask: R2 is attempting to steal 3B on a passed ball. F2 recovers quickly and throws to F5 who gets the ball high and attempts a tag on sliding R2 but completely misses. R2 then slides past 3B and his hand loses contact with the bag. F5 applies the tag while R2 is off the bag.

I signalled No Tag then hammered the out after the tag. It was the correct call(s) but in thinking back over it, it looks a lot like a Safe-Out/poor umpire timing play. I don't think my timing was bad but it may have appeared that it was. Opinions?

[EastTNump08]

I think this is one of those situations where you have to explain your call. In your situation I would have "No tag!" with a big safe mechanic followed by a point and "He's off the bag. He's out!" and a HUGE punch out. I think that would clear up any confusion.

[catsbackr]

I'm not familiar with the "No Tag" mechanic.

Why wouldn't you just use the safe mechanic and then the out mechanic in the OP? Or, just slow your timing down and just call the runner out?

[sdix00]

http://mlb.mlb.com/media/player/mp_tpl_3_1.jsp?mid=200707132083764&vid=7758&gid=2007/07/12/detmlb-seamlb-1&v=2&id=584664&w=2007/open/tp/archive07/071207_detsea_beltre_3rbi_tp_350.wmv

In this clip, Bruce Froemming uses an immediate SAFE mechanic to indicate a missed tag, with the runner off the bag. In fact, the runner never touched 2B and was later appealed.

This is from 2007 so lower quality video.

[MPLSMatt]

I had pretty much the same sitch and I think you have to go with a safe followed by "he overslid the base, OUT!!!" If you don't safe the missed tag and there is no overslide, it's going to look like you either didn't see the tag/no tag or just didn't give a damn.

[yawetag]

Maybe my timing's too slow. In these situations, I don't make the initial call and only make a call when the play's complete. As Bill said originally, it looks like poor timing if you make two calls. That said, it depends on where the original tag attempt is made. If it's made several feet from the bag, I'll probably give two calls - one at the tag attempt and the second at the bag.

As far as OP's question, I only say "no tag" if the attempt is away from the bag. Anything at the bag is an obvious no tag if you're calling him safe.

[carolinablue]

I not familiar with a " no tag" mecahnic either. If I have a close play and the fielder misses the tag, I will give a safe and then vocalize " He missed the tag " so everyone will know.

Sounds like you handled the play OK. Safe on the initial play and then bang him out on the tag and the overslide. I would probably point at the runner and vocalize " He's off the bag".

As far as the timing goes, if it happens quickly, like all at once, you can probably just make one call but if there is any delay between the initial tag and the second tag I think you need to make both calls. Either way, I would vocalize " He's off the bag " so everyone will know I saw the entire play.

[mstaylor]

I can see Bruce call safe on the overslide and two tags, so three safe signs. Then he shows the out for the appeal. Every tag attempt should be ruled on.

[sdix00]

I can see Bruce call safe on the overslide and two tags, so three safe signs. Then he shows the out for the appeal. Every tag attempt should be ruled on.

Except a missed tag with a missed HP.

[mstaylor]

No, if a tag attempt is made then you have to rule on the play. You show a safe signal and announce there is no tag. The touch of home has not been ruled on yet.

[carolinablue]

No, if a tag attempt is made then you have to rule on the play. You show a safe signal and announce there is no tag. The touch of home has not been ruled on yet.

I thought the proper mechanic for a missed tag/missed base at home was no call.

[BillB1960]

I not familiar with a " no tag" mecahnic either. If I have a close play and the fielder misses the tag, I will give a safe and then vocalize " He missed the tag " so everyone will know.

Sounds like you handled the play OK. Safe on the initial play and then bang him out on the tag and the overslide. I would probably point at the runner and vocalize " He's off the bag".

As far as the timing goes, if it happens quickly, like all at once, you can probably just make one call but if there is any delay between the initial tag and the second tag I think you need to make both calls. Either way, I would vocalize " He's off the bag " so everyone will know I saw the entire play.

On the initial tag attempt F5 was in front of 3B and R2 slid on the outfield side of the bag so it was a pretty big gap but it did happen right at the bag not several feet away. There was definitely a delay between the first tag attempt and the second and I had to lean & look to make sure the runner was off the bag and R5 held the ball after the second tag.

[UmpTTS43]

You only use the safe/no tag call when the runner is not in the vicinity of the base. Concerning the original op, you need to slow your timing down and see the whole play then rule.

[Guest]

I just had this exact play happen about 90 minutes ago in a Senior AAA game, except on a steal of second. F4's first swipe missed but I could tell R1 slid too late and was going to over-slide, so I waited - sure enough, F4 went right back to him and applied the tag with R1 flailing around desperately trying to find the bag.

Sold it with a left-handed point "he over-slid" and then proceeded to bang him out.

[BillB1960]

You only use the safe/no tag call when the runner is not in the vicinity of the base. Concerning the original op, you need to slow your timing down and see the whole play then rule.

Yeah the more I think about it the more I think my no tag/safe call was too quick.

[semper_fi_72]

Timing....Timing....Timing

Don't make a call till the play is completed.

[yawetag]

No, if a tag attempt is made then you have to rule on the play. You show a safe signal and announce there is no tag. The touch of home has not been ruled on yet.

I think a no call makes it obvious there was no tag.

[Fittske24]

Timing....Timing....Timing

Don't make a call till the play is completed.

+1

Timing is everything! It's nothing until you call it..... Don't be in a rush. Allow the playing action to cease then make your call.

[BillB1960]

Timing....Timing....Timing

Don't make a call till the play is completed.

Easy to say but we all know that a Safe call should be made more quickly than an Out call and I didn't think the runner was going to overslide. I was correctly focused on the throw and moving to get an angle on the play so I didn't see the runner begin his slide and had no idea he was going to overslide the base.

Having said all of that I do realize that I need to wait a beat or 2 longer and make sure the play is complete.

[Guest]

Timing....Timing....Timing

Don't make a call till the play is completed.

...we all know that a Safe call should be made more quickly than an Out call ...

Pardon?

[NWA_UMP]

I would agree with Semper on this one...

no call till the play is over...UNLESS you verbalize "no tag" with the safe mechanic on the original attempt at the put out or each such attempt...I can see dumping a coach if you don't verbalize.

[BillB1960]

Timing....Timing....Timing

Don't make a call till the play is completed.

...we all know that a Safe call should be made more quickly than an Out call ...

Pardon?

Did I stutter? There are several more things to look at when determining an out call than there are a safe call. If the runners foot hits the bag before the ball reaches the mitt, the runner is safe. Period. Pretty easy call. On an out call you have to check for pulled foot & firm & secure posession so it takes a couple of extra beats before making the call.

[mstaylor]

Bill, I think what they are questioning is that both calls should be called with the same timing. It is possible for other things to happen, runner tries to pop-up and falls off the bag, over slides, or some other weird thing, so your timing should still be the same. It is possible that a runner could do something unsporting to make the call weird.

[noumpere]

Did I stutter? There are several more things to look at when determining an out call than there are a safe call. If the runners foot hits the bag before the ball reaches the mitt, the runner is safe. Period. Pretty easy call. On an out call you have to check for pulled foot & firm & secure posession so it takes a couple of extra beats before making the call.

No you didnt sutter but you were still wrong. Next youll be telling us that a ball call can be made quiker than a strike call. If you make all your calls with the same timing then you wont have to worry as much about the situation you got yourself in on this play.

[BillB1960]

Did I stutter? There are several more things to look at when determining an out call than there are a safe call. If the runners foot hits the bag before the ball reaches the mitt, the runner is safe. Period. Pretty easy call. On an out call you have to check for pulled foot & firm & secure posession so it takes a couple of extra beats before making the call.

No you didnt sutter but you were still wrong. Next youll be telling us that a ball call can be made quiker than a strike call. If you make all your calls with the same timing then you wont have to worry as much about the situation you got yourself in on this play.

Sorry, I don't agree with that. Coaches, players and spectators expect a quicker Safe call than they do an Out call. If you wait too long on a Safe call you look indecisive. Calling pitches is different and the same timing for balls & strikes is appropriate.