Helping a Pitcher?

[moblue]

I have a DH tomorrow night with a 13 year old team that I've called for a couple of times this year. The coaches and kids are both really great. They also have one pitcher that has one of the best (if not the best) curveballs I've ever seen. The problem is he isn't throwing it quite right to get the best effect from it. His footing is also set up to where I know a way he could probably get at least 3-5 mph more off his fastball if he would change it. I'd like to offer a couple of suggestions, but I don't know the right way to go about it.

I know it isn't our job to coach, but we are all supposed to be in this for the kids aren't we?

[Stan W.]

No......nothing good can come from you saying anything....its not our place to offer suggestions....thats a slippery slope, where does it end?....will you offer to assist a coach in how to make the proper appeal?....of course not....stay out of it...

What would the opposing coach say if he found out you had adivsed the other teams pitcher on how to get more strikes?...might he be concerned about a bias?.......and would he not have some ( albiet small) basis to feel so?

I also believe that Umpires are there to insure the proper and safe administration of the game according to the rules........not to make it a fun experience for the players...

I know this is a 13 year old team, but in higher baseball, coaches are going to take a dim view of you offering coaching to their players......

Just rememeber:

Coaches coach....

Players play...

Umpires umpire...

Edited June 22, 2009 by Stan W.
spelling ...clarity.....

[LMSANS]

I'm with Stan. Many times I have ideas to help a catcher improve, but I just bite my tongue and be quiet. It's not my job and I don't want the coaches/players/fans "helping me.

[treedog24]

Mo,

I've read your post on your ej and this op, don't take this the wrong way but keep to your f'n job which is to umpire.

Not having your profile in front of me but I'm guessing that you are in your late teens/ early 20's, which means umpire stage you are around stage 2 of 3 you know the rules and you are seeing things that you think would make your life easier by but your not sure where the line goes. You have to decide do you want to coach or umpire. You can do both but you have to know when is the right time for you be one or the other. If you were a coach would you want some umpire that you maybe never seen before and who you feel has blown a call or two (like in your ej post) giving your players suggestions?

Just call the game and keep your coaching suggestions to yourself.

[dawg-man]

As an ex coach of twenty years I see these same things and for awhile I thought it was ok to say something. As I advanced I quickly found out I should keep my thoughts to myself. Your intentions are good but you will only get yourself in hot water in the long run. Take these guys advice and keep it to your self.

[SNIPERBBB]

You can explain some pitching rules to him but do not ever attempt to be a coach for the kids when your umpiring. Your intentions are good but if the kid implements your advise in the wrong way and cause the kid to get hurt, you could be on the hook for a lawsuit.

[gixxershane]

If it is not a travel league, help them out, if they travel, this is a touchy subject and I would stay away.

Our little league association's president wants us to help the players out (they don't travel during the season and there where 4 teams this year) so I helped the catchers out on throwing mechanics, and tell pitchers how to make their motion more economicl, but I do this for both teams on the field and each team in our association.

Don't do it for travel teams tho

Any thoughts about kids this age throwing curve balls??

I personally feel they don't have the developed arm strength to throw curve balls under age 16 or older. Just my opinion

They should worry about that more than pitch counts at anything under 16-18??

Just my opinion

Edited June 22, 2009 by gixxershane

[SNIPERBBB]

Curve ball should be banned till High School. Too many coaches have hurt kids arms enough through excessive pitch counts and too many days pitched and not enough off. There are other breaking pitches that they can through that are just as effective and do not require any different arm motion than a normal fastball.

[moblue]

Wow, I figured I might get a few comments like this, but not quite so many harshly worded ones. Calm down guys. When someone asks for a suggestion they are not opening the door for a bashing fest. You guys act like I've already offered the advice.

Of all the responses, the thing that stands out to me the most is this:

I also believe that Umpires are there to insure the proper and safe administration of the game according to the rules........not to make it a fun experience for the players...

Stan, I wouldn't suggest you umpire any youth ball. Stick to high school where it actually starts to matter. It's that kind of attitude that runs the game into the ground for the kids. I've already tried that approach (for a few years, I might add). It didn't go so well. If you aren't out there willing to help make sure the players are having a good time, do them a favor and stay home, or take a different assignment.

Making sure the kids are having fun is part of the job in youth ball. If they aren't having fun, they quit playing. If they quit playing, there are fewer teams. Fewer teams equals fewer games, which equals fewer times you get to umpire. Think about that.

[mstaylor]

I agree that you shouldn't be teaching the kids. As Stan says we are there to administer the rules not teach the kids. I assure you I kid with the kids all the time but I am not teaching them, level doesn't matter.

[SNIPERBBB]

Stan, I wouldn't suggest you umpire any youth ball. Stick to high school where it actually starts to matter. It's that kind of attitude that runs the game into the ground for the kids. I've already tried that approach (for a few years, I might add). It didn't go so well. If you aren't out there willing to help make sure the players are having a good time, do them a favor and stay home, or take a different assignment.

That must be nice to have coaches and players that don't believe the games they are playing do not matter. Too many people around here subscribe to the 18-year-get-rich-quick-scheme. Advice is fine as long as its off the field and out of uniform.

[carolinablue]

If you see the kid around sometime and want to help him out, I don't see why not. Just don't do it why you are wearing your uniform. I offer suggestions to the kids my son has played with for years all the time, but when I'm working , I'm working and they all know I won't hesitate to bang em' out looking or something like that as well. It's a strange thing, I coached for years but I had to become an umpire to really begin to understand the game. Now I see things I never saw as a coach and it is tempting to share what I have learned with others.

[Balk Hater]

you go moblue I often help players to correct mistakes after the play such as a catcher turning his head or an infielder not showing the glove. So far no complaints from coaches but at 12 u I feel I am just helping the kids learn

[kwiggie]

Curve ball should be banned till High School. Too many coaches have hurt kids arms enough through excessive pitch counts and too many days pitched and not enough off. There are other breaking pitches that they can through that are just as effective and do not require any different arm motion than a normal fastball.

I completely agree with the pitch count statement! I also agree with teaching the "Breaking Ball" grip. Communities need to pony up and pay a little money $$$ to ensure that they have "coaches" and not "wanna be coachesparents" at the youth levels, it is good for the game, the players, and the battery in general.

Edited June 23, 2009 by kwiggie

[gixxershane]

I agree there needs to be a system for getting coaches, but I don't really think it would cost much money.

In USA hockey, the coaches HAVE to attend a MANDITORY clinic on coaching, and be certified every year and carry that card with them on the bench. I wish LL would implement something like that. It would be good for the game.

I was doing a LL majors game and the kid pitching was probably between 9-10. First batter he throws a knuckle ball in for a strike!!! Now this knuckle ball did not spin at all!!!! Not much movement, but that will come with arm strength. Second pitch, is a knuckle ball for a ball high!!

The coach yells, "knock that off and throw the ball!!"

A few innings later I talk to the coach and say "coach, don't take this the wrong way, I'm not trying to tell you how to coach, but, why discourage your pitcher from throwing and developing that knuckle ball, he threw it for a strike!!"

"Oh, we don't work on it" he says

I think to myself, self, that kid definitely works on it.

The coach and I agreed that we would rather see kids at this level working on knuckle balls, cutters, and change ups over curve balls or any other strenuous breaking balls that can damage a young kids arm.

[Stan W.]

Wow, I figured I might get a few comments like this, but not quite so many harshly worded ones. Calm down guys. When someone asks for a suggestion they are not opening the door for a bashing fest. You guys act like I've already offered the advice.

Of all the responses, the thing that stands out to me the most is this: Stan, I wouldn't suggest you umpire any youth ball. Stick to high school where it actually starts to matter. It's that kind of attitude that runs the game into the ground for the kids. I've already tried that approach (for a few years, I might add). It didn't go so well. If you aren't out there willing to help make sure the players are having a good time, do them a favor and stay home, or take a different assignment.

Making sure the kids are having fun is part of the job in youth ball. If they aren't having fun, they quit playing. If they quit playing, there are fewer teams. Fewer teams equals fewer games, which equals fewer times you get to umpire. Think about that.

Well Im sorry you took this as bashing....its just clearly a difference in philosophy....

Over the 23+ years I have been umpiring, I have done much more "Youth ball" than HS, Legion, College or MSBL.....and since I still do the local PONY and COLT level, which I think you would agree that is "youth ball"....I think I can offer an informed opinion....and as such I stand by my advice to you....

Fundamentally I do not agree that Umpires are there to offer suggestions, or coach players......I believe that we are to be professional, approachable and cordial....I am there to administer the game in a fair, safe and unbiased manner.

Somewhere in the thread, CarolinaBlue offered the advice that if you really feel strongly about offering suggestions, then do it off the field, out of uniform and in a personal conversation....that way there is no confusion between your "concerned fan" persona and your "game official" status...

If having a well run, safe and unbiased game helps make sure the players are having a good time, then I'll agree....

But, making sure the kids are having fun is not part of the UMPIRES job in youth ball. They have coaches and team Mommies for that.....and coaches and parents to blame for it if they are not....

You say, that If they aren't having fun, they quit playing. If they quit playing, there are fewer teams. Fewer teams equals fewer games, which equals fewer times you get to umpire.....

It has been my experience, that good natured, well trained, professional, un-biased umpires have no shortage of games to umpire...at any level....

On that end, good luck to you, I hope it turns out well.........

Edited June 23, 2009 by Stan W.
clarity/ credit to poster

[HokieUmp]

you go moblue I often help players to correct mistakes after the play such as a catcher turning his head or an infielder not showing the glove. So far no complaints from coaches but at 12 u I feel I am just helping the kids learn

If you're in a local league, and maybe that's all you do, and/or are fairly well known around the league, terrific. Maybe, just maybe, you have that option. If not, though, you're just asking for trouble.

Someone mentioned lawsuits; I don't care about that crap, but I don't want, nor need, a coach/parent in my grill because I've tried to teach their kid. It's along the lines of "Stay out of my dugout, rabbit!" - they have their areas, and do their things, and we have our spaces, and do our things.

And h3ll, I don't remember what site I read this on, but I remember someone told a story about being physically threatened by a Daddy Coach because the umpire had basically just talked to a kid between innings. Dude went nuts; you want that?

I'm a fairly social guy, and will talk to a lot of people. But when I'm umpiring, I talk to coaches at the plate meeting (and will make brief 'small talk' if the meeting seems relaxed), and I'll ask for baseballs. The only conversation I'll really have, for the most part, is with my partner if/when we meet up during the game. Otherwise, I'm fairly silent, even with the catchers.

It's a profession/job/avocation, not a training session or a Happy Hour.

[HokieUmp]

Of all the responses, the thing that stands out to me the most is this: Stan, I wouldn't suggest you umpire any youth ball. Stick to high school where it actually starts to matter. It's that kind of attitude that runs the game into the ground for the kids. I've already tried that approach (for a few years, I might add). It didn't go so well. If you aren't out there willing to help make sure the players are having a good time, do them a favor and stay home, or take a different assignment.

Making sure the kids are having fun is part of the job in youth ball. If they aren't having fun, they quit playing. If they quit playing, there are fewer teams. Fewer teams equals fewer games, which equals fewer times you get to umpire. Think about that.

Making sure the kids are having fun is part of the job of coaches, league officials, team Moms, and parents in youth ball. <--- I corrected your sentence for you; you're welcome.

Sure, kids who aren't having fun stop playing. Two major reasons why:

(1) They suck at the game. (And believe me, I'm writing this from the not-such-a-good-player-back-in-the-day perspective.) Either because they don't practice enough, or haven't developed the coordination yet, or it takes time, or whatever.

Or, maybe more accurately, it's the "got to be good within the first 10 minutes, or I'll hate the activity/sport/job" mentality that is pervasive now. When the top-level professionals fail at the plate 7 of 10 times, it's not supposed to be easy.

(2) The coaches and parents make it miserable. See part of (1) above; if the pros fail that much, why do they think Junior is going to catch or hit every ball, and then, why do they spazz when he doesn't? Frankly, even at the HS/Legion level, there are too many football coaches disguised as baseball coaches; where they have to holler about something. Mistakes get made.

Anyway, neither of those two reasons involve us, as you may have noticed. And there's really nothing in the rulebook that lets us influence those two things.

I'm with Stan - I'm there to administer the rules and make my judgements on plays, nothing more or less. If that helps the experience, that's gravy. And trust me - I've got plenty of 'youth games' under my belt.

[Mr Umpire]

I agree to not give suggestions. Even if you are doing it for both teams. The kids can have fun without umpires doing it. Remember the days when we played games without adults(for those of you over the age of 30). All the rest of you youngsters probably don't know what a pickup game is anyway.

The reason I say that is what if you give bad advice or what if 1 kid can do it but the other team's kid can't. How are you going to convince them it was sound advice but your kid just sucks? You taught the kid your "correct" mechanics but he gave up 2 HRs b/c of it. It is a dangerous situation to put yourself in. Trouble will find you so don't go looking for it.

If you want to coach, fine. If you want to umpire, fine. If you want to play, fine. But, don't try to do any of them in combination. Which is why no coach should approach an umpire saying "I have umpired for XX years" or a player. And, an umpire doesn't approach a coach saying "I have coached XX years and this is how I teach it". It is an ego thing and no one wants their ego stepped on. It may cause problems, even if you are not in uniform. I don't see any good from it.

[moblue]

If you see the kid around sometime and want to help him out, I don't see why not. Just don't do it why you are wearing your uniform. I offer suggestions to the kids my son has played with for years all the time, but when I'm working , I'm working and they all know I won't hesitate to bang em' out looking or something like that as well. It's a strange thing, I coached for years but I had to become an umpire to really begin to understand the game. Now I see things I never saw as a coach and it is tempting to share what I have learned with others.

This was the kind of suggestion that I was looking for. I wasn't so much concerned about the "should I do it?" because I already knew the forum's general concensus on such matters. I was concerned more with the best way to offer a suggestion. Waiting until I'm out of uniform and away from the game would be the best time to bring it up if the opportunity presented itself. Thanks everyone for the input.

[kylejt]

I'm just a UIC at a local LL park, so I've got a different take on things.

Many times coaches will ask me after the game what I saw. Now I've coached at all these levels, and through to 18+ travel ball, so I've got a bit of experience in the dugout and practice field. I've got no problems with offering help for those who wish to listen.

Me, I'm all about my league getting better. From the menu in the snack bar, the umpires on the field, to the rule knowledge of our coaches. It's not an us vs. them attitude.

If a catcher is pulling pitches, I'll tell him about it. "Hey Nate, if you're moving the ball after you catch it, you just proved to me that it wasn't a strike. Just leave it there for a second, and don't move it". Things like that we can do, and it's not giving an advantage either way.

I'm lucky enough to work in a league that really appreciates the work of the umpires. We don't go scurrying off after games, but are usually around to help out around the park after games. Me, I'm usually dragging a field, or taking out trash. And I get my coaching brain picked a lot after a lot of games that I umpire.

[Mr Umpire]

I believe the difference would have to be if it is volunteer or paid.

I get paid for all I do. I have done volunteer and the attitude is much different except when the game is going on and everyone is being competitive. But, once the game is over and in some cases where the competitiveness is lower, then giving advice may be accepted. I still don't like it b/c it just takes 1 person to say "You gave me bad advice" and cause a problem about it.

Doing paid games, the competitive level can be more of a driving force b/c they think we are out there working for them or something. While I know and understand that volunteer leagues are just as competitive, the attitude is still different. There is none of this "Get my money's worth" attitude which may be brought to paid leagues. So, no advice keeps any signs of supposed favoritism appearing. And, I do not view it as a "us vs. them" idea. I see it as a "They have their job to do, and I have mine" attitude. B/c they have no problem displaying that during the game, so I have no problem with doing that as well.

[IndianaUmp]

Although I basically agree with those who said not to coach while umping, I understand that it's very tough not to offer the occasional suggestion to catchers in particular at the younger levels, especially when they are too far behind the plate. It's doubly tough for me because I coach at the local high school and do some umping in youth games when I can in the summer. These guys are my future players! Can't tell you how many times I see kids up to bat with their hands twisted around too far (don't have "knocking knuckles" lined up or even close), elbows sticking way up and too far away from their bodies. So far I've resisted the temptation to call time and fix them! LOL What I do instead is conduct a free coaching clinic in the spring with my staff helping out and we invite all youth coaches. That's when I share some of the things I see when umping. No favoritism there--all have equal access to the clinic.

[Umpire in Chief]

I don't have a problem telling a catcher to move up or not jerk a pitch, that's not coaching in my book.

[catoblue]

I always have to bite my tongue when I'm umpiring and I see a kid do something that I could fix with just a couple words. After umping LL for 25+ years, and coaching for 15 years, it's tough to force myself to draw a line between umping and coaching, but I do it.

I think IndianaUmp has an awesome idea!!! To put on a clinic for the coaches where the umpires pass on things they saw over the previous season... brilliant!!!! What better way for the umpires to pass on those bits and pieces of great info which we can not pass on during the regular season. All coaches get the benefit of hearing these things, and there is no way that anybody can construe the information being shared as showing favoritism. I like it!

Next time I see something that I have to bite my tongue over, I'm going to write it down after the game and save it for next year. Even if it's not the umps passing it on, it can be passed on by the BOD at the coach's meeting before the season starts!