10-man lineup with DH in effect: Who bats where after player is removed from game and restricted to the bench?

[Side Retired]

JV high school game, so NFHS rules. Team in question had only 10 players. The 10th player was assigned as DH for the right fielder.

In the 2nd inning, a runner from this team was caught between 2nd and 3rd. Returning to 2nd base, the runner threw an elbow at the infielder placing a tag. The umpire removed the runner from the game for unsportsmanlike conduct, restricting him to the bench. The player removed was the catcher. The team placed another player at catcher, but they were down to nine players, so the DH had to take the field.

Question (a couple actually): How does the coach/scorekeeper separate the DH from the right fielder in the lineup/scorebook? If either the DH or right fielder can reenter once, they still have to reenter in the same spot in the lineup. By the book, is the team now stuck with only eight batters? Was the DH supposed to remain on the bench or can he legally come onto the field for defensive purposes?

On the field, the opposing coach agreed to allow the DH and right fielder to be separated in the lineup, and the right fielder came up to bat in the removed catcher's spot in the lineup, but the confusion was what the proper adjustment in the scorebook was supposed to be.

[noumpere]

In FED, you can play with 8

[beerguy55]

Maybe I'm missing something...

 

Lineup is ABCDEFGHI - J is F9, defense only.  A is DH.   Nobody else on bench.  C gets ejected.

Lineup is now ABJDEFGHI.  No bench.  No DH.

Nine players take whatever 9 positions the coach wants them to.

 

Is that wrong?  You're revoking the DH role...both players now bat and field.

 

As far as the scorebook - enter J into C's former spot, just like you would a sub - assuming as F9.  Update other player positions as appropriate....someone went to F2...I'm assuming A went into their position.  You're only ever scoring in 9 batting positions, so the tenth position, formerly for the defensive player, doesn't really matter.

I can't remember how you need to do it in Gamechanger, but I seem to recall it's pretty simple.

 

[Jimurray]

4 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Maybe I'm missing something...

 

Lineup is ABCDEFGHI - J is F9, defense only.  A is DH.   Nobody else on bench.  C gets ejected.

Lineup is now ABJDEFGHI.  No bench.  No DH.

Nine players take whatever 9 positions the coach wants them to.

 

Is that wrong?  

 

As far as the scorebook - enter J into C's former spot, just like you would a sub - assuming as F9.  Update other player positions as appropriate....someone went to F2...I'm assuming A went into their position.  You're only ever scoring in 9 batting positions, so the tenth position, formerly for the defensive player, doesn't really matter.

I can't remember how you need to do it in Gamechanger, but I seem to recall it's pretty simple.

 

That’s wrong. DH and defensive player are locked into 1 batting order slot and can’t be on defense at the same time. Aside for OP. Player can’t be restricted for that, only ejected. 

[beerguy55]

11 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

That’s wrong. DH and defensive player are locked into 1 batting order slot and can’t be on defense at the same time. Aside for OP. Player can’t be restricted for that, only ejected. 

Sounds to like he was ejected and restricted.  (as opposed to making him go to the parking lot without adult supervision).

So in NFHS can a team end a game with 8 batters?  Skipped or "Otto Out"?

Seems a silly gap in the rules - completely understand wanting to prevent creating a float position...but you should be able to separate them with the caveat that there is no more DH for the remainder of the game if there are no other players.

The difference here is the DH is no longer batting for said defensive player...the defensive player is hitting for himself...and once the DH enters defensively the DH role is terminated.

They have all these rules to come up with nonsensical ways to get more players in the game (bench-based courtesy runners), but won't allow a situation to complete a 9-player batting lineup when there are no other options???

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

Sounds to like he was ejected and restricted.  (as opposed to making him go to the parking lot without adult supervision).

So in NFHS can a team end a game with 8 batters?  Skipped or "Otto Out"?

Seems a silly gap in the rules - completely understand wanting to prevent creating a float position...but you should be able to separate them with the caveat that there is no more DH for the remainder of the game if there are no other players.

The difference here is the DH is no longer batting for said defensive player...the defensive player is hitting for himself...and once the DH enters defensively the DH role is terminated.

They have all these rules to come up with nonsensical ways to get more players in the game (bench-based courtesy runners), but won't allow a situation to complete a 9-player batting lineup when there are no other options???

NFHS requires ejected players to stay in the dugout unless they become disruptive there. If so they go to the bus with a coach. If you have a small roster you might reconsider doing a 10 man lineup and reenforce not doing anything to get ejected. NFHS can finish with 8 with an out in the missing slot. 

[beerguy55]

26 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

If you have a small roster you might reconsider doing a 10 man lineup and reenforce not doing anything to get ejected. NFHS can finish with 8 with an out in the missing slot.

Don't get me wrong - whenever I had only ten players I always ensured someone was on the bench the entire game.  I rarely went with a DH even when I had 11 players.   Even if there are provisions for "involuntary" shortened benches, DH restricts your options too much.   If you're doing this solely to get more players into the game you're doing the wrong things for the wrong reasons - if that's really your motivation, it's better to sub in players mid-game with the option to re-enter if something goes sideways.

Give me a roster of 15+ players then I'll use DH to give me the bet hitting and defending lineup.  Give me 12 or less, I'm going with nine fielders that all bat.

No player who ever played for me ever got ejected - never, at any level, at any age - but injuries happen.

[Velho]

3 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

They have all these rules to come up with nonsensical ways to get more players in the game (bench-based courtesy runners), but won't allow a situation to complete a 9-player batting lineup when there are no other options???

That's why LL has a provision for an ineligible sub to enter the game to keep 8 players on the field (opposing coach gets to pick the player). [that said, this doesn't apply as broadly anymore since CBO is more common, especially at younger levels]

"If during a game either team is unable to place nine (9) players on the field due to illness, injury or ejection, or inability to make a legal substitution, the opposing manager shall select a player previously used in the line up to reenter the game, but only if use of all eligible players has exhausted the roster. A player ejected from the game is not eligible for re-entry."

 

I'm with @beerguy55, given the scholastic nature of HS, I'm surprised NFHS doesn't have this too.

[The Man in Blue]

14 hours ago, Side Retired said:

JV high school game, so NFHS rules. Team in question had only 10 players. The 10th player was assigned as DH for the right fielder.

Hmm.  Sounds like a bad idea.

Huh.  That was a bad idea.

5 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Seems a silly gap in the rules - completely understand wanting to prevent creating a float position...but you should be able to separate them with the caveat that there is no more DH for the remainder of the game if there are no other players.

…

They have all these rules to come up with nonsensical ways to get more players in the game (bench-based courtesy runners), but won't allow a situation to complete a 9-player batting lineup when there are no other options???

Doesn’t seem like a gap to me.  Why reward teams for ejectable behavior?

I see two valid options:

1) don’t do something to eject yourself

2) don’t make tragic lineup decisions like playing 10 when you only have 10

 

Should we allow any random courtesy runner so the coach can play 10?  What other things should the coach not have to abide by since he is playing 10?

 

And please don’t give me “it was only JV, what about the children?!”  

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, The Man in Blue said:

Doesn’t seem like a gap to me.  Why reward teams for ejectable behavior?

I'd agree with you if you can demonstrate this exact same thing wouldn't happen if the player got injured instead of ejected.

 

1 hour ago, The Man in Blue said:

don’t make tragic lineup decisions like playing 10 when you only have 10

I already stated how I would handle this lineup.

 

1 hour ago, The Man in Blue said:

Should we allow any random courtesy runner so the coach can play 10?  What other things should the coach not have to abide by since he is playing 10?

Quite the opposite - the current NFHS "speed up" rules are not speeding up the game...they are thinly disguised ways to get more players into games in really stupid ways..."yeah, I'm gonna have this jackrabbit on my bench to do nothing but run for the catcher"...give me a F*#King break.

I guarantee you the courtesy runner rules I've played/coached under for the past 4+ decades are far superior to this nonsense of having only bench players run for catchers or pitcher AND they don't put additional players into the lineup.

 

In the end, having a scholastic rule set with dozens of guiding principles that explicitly and specifically gear towards that particular age group, only to not allow something as simple as splitting a DH/defense role after a series of unfortunate injuries occur is a moronic set of priorities.

 

[TheLovejoy]

When the DH takes the field, the player that he's DH'ing for, has to come out. He can't re-enter, because he's 'one person' in the same spot in the lineup as the DH. 

For a JV game, I'm positive both coaches in most jurisdictions would be like, 'yeah, just bat the Right Fielder in the Catchers spot now as some sort of re-entry, all inclusive, get the kids on the field type thing. That's what would happen here. 

So how would it be handled legally? When the DH goes into the field, F9 becomes an illegal player, and has to remove himself. I believe the shorthanded rule allows you to play with 8. When the catcher position comes up to bat, it's the ol' auto-out. 

[noumpere]

7 hours ago, TheLovejoy said:

When the DH takes the field, the player that he's DH'ing for, has to come out. He can't re-enter, because he's 'one person' in the same spot in the lineup as the DH. 
 

That part is incorrect.  The player was a starter; he can re-enter in the same position in the batting order.

[TheLovejoy]

16 hours ago, noumpere said:

That part is incorrect.  The player was a starter; he can re-enter in the same position in the batting order.

Yes. I misspoke. I meant, he can’t come back into another place as a batter while the DH is on the field or in the lineup.

 

Ive had coaches try to put the DH in the field, then enter this player into an other players spot in the batting order. No go. That’s what I was getting at. Re-enter is for sure the wrong word I was looking for.