All Star S7 Magnesium (FM4000 Magnesium) vs. EvoShield Pro SRZ (with WindPact)

[Rock Bottom]

Anyone one use both also have a recommendation? From what I can gather the All Star has the clearly better (and lighter) frame, and the EvoShield has at least somewhat better pads, but I haven't heard as much about them as I'd expect, or maybe few are using them.

[834k3r]

Paging @MadMax, please pick up the white courtesy phone.

[The Man in Blue]

My son bought an EvoShield shortly after they came out … can’t speak to the pads, but his frame turned into a tetanus hazard within a single season.  I told him to contact them and send it back.  It had more rust than a 1950s vehicle left in a field for 60 years.

I have no idea what he did to lead to that, as he is very meticulous about his gear.

[SeeingEyeDog]

@Rock Bottom, one of the features about the AS masks that does not get talked about enough is the "dispersion plate" in their pads. All of this is available on YouTube. I believe it's either the AS channel or the Ump-Attire channel. Stan Jurga at All-Star walks us through a very detailed and thorough explanation about their company, their products and their testing. (What companies do you support and wear? What kind of testing are they doing? What kind of testing are they showing you they are doing? Not a criticism...just a question we should all be asking ourselves...) Basic physics tell us that all of the other mask pads that are out there concentrate the force of a blow on the mask at the point of impact. All-Star's dispersion plate, which is a plate that runs along the OUTSIDE of the entire lower pad (still encased in the outer material...) takes the force of the blow of a baseball and disperses it throughout a larger area.

A baseball's contact patch is perhaps the size of a quarter. Would you rather have that force focused on that quarter-sized contact patch or would you rather have it spread and dispersed (meaning the force is fading as you move away from the point of impact)?

I don't know if AS has a patent on this dispersion plate or not but, I don't know why more mask manufacturers are not using it.

As for the Windpact pads...I think they are a wonderfully uniquely innovative idea which still need a bit more testing and development. I wore those pads for a few games and I just didn't feel as protected as I do when I wear those AS pads. I have a large face and jawline which protrudes beyond the confines of most non-AS masks and pads to include Windpact pads. This does not mean the Windpacts won't work for YOU. It just means they are not the best choice for ME.

~Dawg

 

[Rock Bottom]

7 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

 

I don't know if AS has a patent on this dispersion plate or not but, I don't know why more mask manufacturers are not using it.

As the Windpact pads...I think they are a wonderfully uniquely innovative idea which still need a bit more testing and development. I wore those pads for a few games and I just didn't feel as protected as I do when I wear those AS pads. I have a large face and jawline which protrudes beyond the confines of most non-AS masks and pads to include Windpact pads. This does not mean the Windpacts won't work for YOU. It just means they are not the best choice for ME.

~Dawg

 

Great - points, thanks! I have the AS mag pads that I use with my AS FM4000 steel, but I got a slight bend (I'm not sure if it's even enough to worry about), so I've been investigating getting a new mask. I'm STRONGLY leaning towards the AS FM400 magnesium, but just want to cover my bases. 

[DerekGDS]

59 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

I don't know if AS has a patent on this dispersion plate or not but, I don't know why more mask manufacturers are not using it.

They do not. (99% sure)

1 hour ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

As for the Windpact pads...I think they are a wonderfully uniquely innovative idea which still need a bit more testing and development. I wore those pads for a few games and I just didn't feel as protected as I do when I wear those AS pads. I have a large face and jawline which protrudes beyond the confines of most non-AS masks and pads to include Windpact pads.

Windpact can be used in basically any form factor with an open cell foam. They're just specifically designed for the Evoshield which as pointed out may not be the best option for a specific frame.

[834k3r]

13 hours ago, Rock Bottom said:

 

Great - points, thanks! I have the AS mag pads that I use with my AS FM4000 steel, but I got a slight bend (I'm not sure if it's even enough to worry about), so I've been investigating getting a new mask. I'm STRONGLY leaning towards the AS FM400 magnesium, but just want to cover my bases. 

I have two titanium masks, but my AS Mag is my favorite mask--not just because I had it powder coated Carolina Blue. I haven't taken any serious hits to it, but it's so freaking light. My only complaint is the pads--they're fantastic, but the cheek coverage makes them feel hotter than my TW pads I have on my Ti masks.

Your mileage, obviously, may (and probably will) vary.

[Velho]

14 minutes ago, 834k3r said:

I have two titanium masks, but my AS Mag is my favorite mask--not just because I had it powder coated Carolina Blue. I haven't taken any serious hits to it, but it's so freaking light. My only complaint is the pads--they're fantastic, but the cheek coverage makes them feel hotter than my TW pads I have on my Ti masks.

Your mileage, obviously, may (and probably will) vary.

I have the AS Mag and late last year got the F3 on sale. I really like the rounded bars of the F3 for field of view but love the lightness of the AS Mag. Was thinking of getting titanium to split the difference.

What's difference between AS and titanium for you?

[MadMax]

17 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

but his frame turned into a tetanus hazard within a single season.  I told him to contact them and send it back.  It had more rust than a 1950s vehicle left in a field for 60 years.

I call that EvoShield ProSRZ mask "the goblin". It is a hideous mask, lookin' very feral. The reason for the rust? It's untreated steel. If they claim it's paint, they're lyin'. Someone at EvoShield got paid (a few yuan, granted) to press the button on the paint gun, regardless of any paint actually coming out and coating the frame. But hey!... it's got that EvoShield logo on it, and the MLB Lou Gehrig on it, which is B-I-G for credibility swag factor. 

Supposedly, there's a titanium-framed ProSRZ (maybe it's the "Pro-" part) on the market, but I have yet to see it. I've seen plenty of EvoShield sponsored amateur catchers wearing the shins, the CP (which are both rather good), and with a goblin's face leering back at me. 

Hideous savage. 

On 10/5/2024 at 6:08 PM, Rock Bottom said:

From what I can gather the All Star has the clearly better (and lighter) frame

You're going to get that with any of the 2 – someday soon, 3 – magnesium frames on the market. Magnesium is the mythical silver bullet for mask frames – it's light, it doesn't bend, and it doesn't break (unless under extreme stress). 

There are two paths, or avenues, to solving the "mask problem" – geometric or mechanical. Force3 has gone mechanical; it's a valid avenue, but it's hit a cul-de-sac, hindered by cost. The only way – the only way – to support the springs suspension is to house them in steel, and to weld them to the steel subframe. It cannot feasibly be done any other way. The only thing that can be lightened is the outer frame, perhaps being titanium. It cannot be aluminum, because aluminum won't deform enough so as to activate the springs, and all the stress will be on the aluminum frame at the point where it fastens to the spring assemblies. If carbon fiber was to be considered, we're now talking engineering processes and software that rival the labors of supercar manufacturers. 
Again, the Force3 Defender is a great mask, and is the co- "best" mask on the market... which it shares... with... 

All-Star. All-Star has gone all-in on a geometric solution. They started to do this with the FM1000 and FM2000, and culminated in the FM4000 (I don't know what happened to the 3000), increasing the slant and vectoring with each rendition. Instead of the mask frame absorbing the assailing impact, their frame deflects it into a glancing, ricocheting shot. The actual alloy cocktail of magnesium can be adjusted now so as to allow the frame to dampen – metallurgically – the impact energy, further reducing it as it is transferred to the pads... which @SeeingEyeDog pointed out, possess that hard distributor plate. To answer Dawg's rhetorical musing, the reason other companies don't infuse a distributor plate into their mask pads is because they "drunk the yelloW kool-aid", and fell in with the cult of Professional decree that "you must change your mask pads annually". Why on Earth would you ever put more cost of materials into something that you have to change yearly anyway?? 

The Rampage was another prototype planform that was, as far as I can surmise, a technical exercise. The FM4000 has its own challenge – due to the extreme sloped shaping of the forehead section, the mask cannot be molded in one go; it has to be two separate halves. So, at the ear guards, there are correlating wedges of steel inserted in promptly after the mold is filled, and the two halves are welded together at those two points. The Rampage, by contrast, is molded in one shot. Well, instead of shelving or discarding the mold, a production run of them was made, and Champro brought it to (the USA) market. Other companies have since picked up production batches of this frame, but they all suffer from the same shortcoming – pads. It's the pads, pads, pads... that make all the difference. 

16 hours ago, DerekGDS said:

Windpact can be used in basically any form factor with an open cell foam.

Derek's right, to an extent. Windpact is merely the company that developed the technology, which they dubbed "CrashCloud". It's an air bladder, comprised of a membrane that holds air molecules at an ever-so-slightly different PSI than the outside air. When an impact compresses the bladder, the membrane allows the air to escape the bladder with resistance; at the same time (we're talking nanoseconds), a fill valve is inletting air in to force the bladder to re-inflate (I might have this inverted; if I do, I'll correct it later). Think of it like an airbag in your car, but on your face; or a whoopie cushion, without the... flatulent sound. 

Air has a decided advantage in these protective systems because its mass is negligible. Open cell foam has very weak compression... unless you have more mass. Closed cell foam has very hard compression... but the mass of it increases as you increase the volume. With CrashCloud, because you can securely hold–then flush–then refill (big) air cells, you don't need closed cell foam's structure, nor do you need all that much open cell foam; just enough to fit to and contact your face in crucial spots. 

 

[834k3r]

On 10/7/2024 at 8:40 AM, Velho said:

I have the AS Mag and late last year got the F3 on sale. I really like the rounded bars of the F3 for field of view but love the lightness of the AS Mag. Was thinking of getting titanium to split the difference.

What's difference between AS and titanium for you?

Since @MadMax did such a great job providing an analytic view (as he seems to always do), I'll just provide my opinion.

My first mask I bought (side note:  I got into umpiring by getting an equipment scholarship from Battlefields2Ballfields--a great veteran-focused non-profit) was the V1 Defender. I liked it. A lot. I blame on @tpatience my penchant for light masks--it was from him I bought my first Ti mask and was spoiled because of its light weight. Then a peer got the AS Mag and while I was originally put off by its appearance, the featherweight (relatively speaking) nature of the mask wore me down, and when I got it powdercoated it became my favorite mask.

And the V1 Defender? You never forget your first love, but I ended up selling it.