Game management learnings

[BLWizzRanger]

So I had two situations where I should have handled them the same, but I didn't.  So what are your thoughts?

First, I am the calling umpire in C on the third game of the day.  First inning: there is a ground ball to HT F3 that F1 runs over and covers.  I thought F1 missed the bag as he went by - he definitely didn't step directly on it.  Called the runner safe. (OK, so this was the third play in the inning that it was a tight call and it went against the HT.  HT coaches started hollering hard after the call. I waited a few seconds, then called time, and walked to the dugout and, I don't want to say chastise, maybe sternly, told them how to act if they wanted to dispute a call.  I did go to my partner to get help and he gave me information that when combined with what I saw, I overturned the call and called the BR out.  I made the call and gave the coaches a minute to discuss but then I shut it down.  However, the VTHC followed my partner back to the plate and discussed it more than they should have.)  With me going over to the HT dugout and doing what I did, it went very well and I had the coaches apologizing for their behavior.

Next to last inning (90 degree day, players were chirping slightly and warned to not let it get out of hand).  I am in C and not the calling umpire.  The VT had a batter that hit the ball up the third base line that was obviously foul to me.  My partner called the ball fair and allowed the F5 to field the ball while his left foot was on the corner of the bag that is on the foul line and his right foot well into foul territory ( a force play). He caught the ball off of his right knee. Its one of those that was so obvious that he could have immediately gave a mea culpa and got out of it - but he didn't. (ok, so both VT coaches came down the line and started in on my partner as hard as the other coaches in the first inning.  I was coming down because I thought my partner would have come to me, but he didn't.  He made the statement to the coaches that he was sure it was a foul ball and when they appealed to me, I gave a half hearted 'well, from my position, I can't tell that and it is his call {booooo me} and then I turned or stayed away as he took some flack.  The next inning something else happened with my partner getting hollered at and I just threw the AC out for being over the top and ended the game with 3 minutes left before NNI. VT was losing and the HT was at bat.)  

So I think I should have handled both situations the same.  I should have chastised, no, I mean sternly ( I don't know what word to use other than not be soft on it) told the VT coaches how to act and possibly instructed them to get help properly and the call might have been reversed.  I am pretty sure it would have gone better if my partner did come to me.  My partner said afterwards that he was hoping they would ask for him to get help so that he could but after they chewed hard, he wasn't going to get help.  So I can't overcome that, but, are there other approaches one can use to make sure the call gets corrected? If he was blinded by getting chewed on and not going to get help, I am not sure I could say anything to the situation and NOT throw him under the bus if I step up there.

IDK, what do you think? Is that a risk one should take sometimes?

[grayhawk]

44 minutes ago, BLWizzRanger said:

First inning: there is a ground ball to HT F3 that F1 runs over and covers.  I thought F1 missed the bag as he went by - he definitely didn't step directly on it.  Called the runner safe.

Unless you see him miss, then he didn't. Call the out. If the defensive team asks you to get help from your partner, then see if your partner had him off the base. It's easier to change the call that way than saying you saw him miss and change it to him touching the base. Same as a possible pulled foot when the fielder stretches straight at you.
 

47 minutes ago, BLWizzRanger said:

I waited a few seconds, then called time, and walked to the dugout and, I don't want to say chastise, maybe sternly, told them how to act if they wanted to dispute a call.

Never walk to the dugout. I know you probably don't want to tell across the field, but if they don't know how to act, then put up your hand with a firm, "That's enough!" If they run through the stop sign, then eject. If you're working a game where you should give an official warning, then do so. But don't walk to the dugout.
 

51 minutes ago, BLWizzRanger said:

However, the VTHC followed my partner back to the plate and discussed it more than they should have.)

That's your partner's business. If they were being respectful and asking a question, then I wouldn't have a problem with them talking to him since he gave you the information to change your call. 
 

1 hour ago, BLWizzRanger said:

I was coming down because I thought my partner would have come to me, but he didn't.

Don't come down unless (1) your partner is getting outnumbered or (2) the argument is dragging on and you need to be within earshot and to rodeo clown someone who's been ejected. Don't assume your partner is going to ask you for help.
 

54 minutes ago, BLWizzRanger said:

He made the statement to the coaches that he was sure it was a foul ball and when they appealed to me, I gave a half hearted 'well, from my position, I can't tell that and it is his call {booooo me} and then I turned or stayed away as he took some flack.

I don't understand. He told them he was sure it was foul? Why didn't he just change the call then and there? "They" can't appeal to you. Only your partner can do that. If they ask you what you saw, then the only proper answer (if you give one at all) would be that it's your partner's call. Hard stop. Sounds like you essentially did this.
 

57 minutes ago, BLWizzRanger said:

IDK, what do you think? Is that a risk one should take sometimes?

No. The only time you should step in, unsolicited, is if your partner misapplied a rule or a situation like where he called an out on a tag where the ball was clearly on the ground and he didn't see it. A pure judgment call on a fair/foul isn't a time where you can "fix" it without being asked.

 

[Velho]

33 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

1 hour ago, BLWizzRanger said:

I waited a few seconds, then called time, and walked to the dugout and, I don't want to say chastise, maybe sternly, told them how to act if they wanted to dispute a call.

Never walk to the dugout. I know you probably don't want to tell across the field, but if they don't know how to act, then put up your hand with a firm, "That's enough!" If they run through the stop sign, then eject. If you're working a game where you should give an official warning, then do so. But don't walk to the dugout.

Appreciate the insight and want you perspective on this for those of us below college.

I know (imagine?) training the coaches how to behave is not part of NCAA that you work but it certainly can be at younger ages and even HS. Right or wrong, the coaches are often not sophisticated and don't know any better (s**tbirds aside).

Any thoughts on how best to balance that? We could EJ very very often if we held the line at "that's enough" and EJ thereafter. There usually aren't enough consequences and they don't coach for more than a few years (especially below HS).

I don't want to be yelling across the field nor going to the dugout from across the field and sometimes we feel we have to pick the lesser of two evils, as I imagine BLW did in OP.

[grayhawk]

12 minutes ago, Velho said:

Any thoughts on how best to balance that? We could EJ very very often if we held the line at "that's enough" and EJ thereafter. There usually aren't enough consequences and they don't coach for more than a few years (especially below HS).

You have to have a feel for the situation, who's yelling at you and what you will tolerate. Even MLB umpires will say "Stop!" in succession (though usually not more than twice) to get someone to comply. An easy way to soften would be, following the stop sign, "Dan (head coach's name), if you have a question, come out and ask me." You would hope he would get the hint that you're willing to discuss the call and get help.

16 minutes ago, Velho said:

I don't want to be yelling across the field nor going to the dugout from across the field and sometimes we feel we have to pick the lesser of two evils, as I imagine BLW did in OP.

Going to the dugout is never the lesser of two evils. Who looks like the aggressor when you're walking towards the dugout? Looks terrible on video which is getting posted on social media constantly.

[Kevin_K]

13 hours ago, Velho said:

Appreciate the insight and want you perspective on this for those of us below college.

I know (imagine?) training the coaches how to behave is not part of NCAA that you work but it certainly can be at younger ages and even HS. Right or wrong, the coaches are often not sophisticated and don't know any better (s**tbirds aside).

Any thoughts on how best to balance that? We could EJ very very often if we held the line at "that's enough" and EJ thereafter. There usually aren't enough consequences and they don't coach for more than a few years (especially below HS).

I don't want to be yelling across the field nor going to the dugout from across the field and sometimes we feel we have to pick the lesser of two evils, as I imagine BLW did in OP.

Sometimes asking a team's HC if they want to talk to you about a certain call is a way to demonstrate that you are approachable and expect them to behave civilly. 

If they come on the field as though they have been shot out of a cannon and their hair is on fire, the same question can  help to diffuse the situation. Suggesting that they talk to you rather than yell and offer histrionics gives them enough pause to reconsider that you might actually talk to them.

Another low key way to deal with the bench jockeying is to approach the HC as he makes his way to a coaching box and suggest that he needs to handle his bench or you will. There is no reason for anyone to have to hear nonsense for any extended period. Let them have their momentary response, ignore it, and move on. Sticking your face in a dugout is not a recipe for a successful long term game management procedure.

Like most things in life, the more we do something the better we get at doing it. If anyone continually hears chirping perhaps its time for some reflection about why there is so much. We have a lot of tools at our disposal to get better. Everyone misses calls now and again but there are umpires have mechanics and judgment that make everyone raise an eyebrow. Keep putting tools in the toolbox and continue to hone your skills and the games you work and the people you see in those games become easier to deal with. 

[maven]

16 hours ago, BLWizzRanger said:

Next to last inning (90 degree day, players were chirping slightly and warned to not let it get out of hand).

You've had some great advice so far. Let me comment on this piece.

I'm not sure what you mean by "chirping" here, but whatever it is, you need a bright line. Either ignore it, or shut it down.

"Don't do too much of that!" is not an enforceable instruction, because nobody has any idea what "too much" or "out of hand" might be. The progression for undesirable behavior is IAWE: Ignore (if possible), Acknowledge (stare at the guilty party), Warn (once), Eject. Any of the steps can be skipped in egregious situations.

[Coach Carl]

57 minutes ago, maven said:

Acknowledge (stare at the guilty party

Mr. Maven, I'd appreciate a little information on this.  Despite my moniker, I don't coach teams anymore.  I've taken to umpiring in my Little League occasionally (Minors) and appreciate some game management help.

As I envision this "stare", I think of it like the teacher who used to deal with misbehavior by not saying a word and waiting for the disrupter(s) to realize their error.  No words necessary, just wait them out until they get self-conscious and stop.  Maybe even followed up with, "are you done, Mr. (last name)" and a sheepish "yes".

I ask, because, I can see in a different context or done improperly (or received imporperly), it could be thought of as quite aggressive.  I think you'd want to save the aggressiveness for the actual warning?

[BLWizzRanger]

1 hour ago, maven said:

You've had some great advice so far. Let me comment on this piece.

I'm not sure what you mean by "chirping" here, but whatever it is, you need a bright line. Either ignore it, or shut it down.

"Don't do too much of that!" is not an enforceable instruction, because nobody has any idea what "too much" or "out of hand" might be. The progression for undesirable behavior is IAWE: Ignore (if possible), Acknowledge (stare at the guilty party), Warn (once), Eject. Any of the steps can be skipped in egregious situations.

I am looking through the thread and see some good advice overall and will respond in short time.

Most of these, of course, are had to be there.  Case in point, I said 'chirping' here to note they were talking back and forth.  What actually happened was R2 was hollering with F8 'What are you going to do about it?' and the response was 'Come here and I will show you.' So it was time to shut that down.

 

 

[BigBlue4u]

4 hours ago, Coach Carl said:

I ask, because, I can see in a different context or done improperly (or received imporperly), it could be thought of as quite aggressive.  I think you'd want to save the aggressiveness for the actual warning?

Coach Carl,

The best thing to do is to handle any situation based on its entirety.  The first time something happens will be handled a lot differently than dealing with a situation that has been building up.

[The Man in Blue]

On 6/21/2024 at 8:31 AM, Coach Carl said:

Mr. Maven, I'd appreciate a little information on this.  Despite my moniker, I don't coach teams anymore.  I've taken to umpiring in my Little League occasionally (Minors) and appreciate some game management help.

As I envision this "stare", I think of it like the teacher who used to deal with misbehavior by not saying a word and waiting for the disrupter(s) to realize their error.  No words necessary, just wait them out until they get self-conscious and stop.  Maybe even followed up with, "are you done, Mr. (last name)" and a sheepish "yes".

I ask, because, I can see in a different context or done improperly (or received imporperly), it could be thought of as quite aggressive.  I think you'd want to save the aggressiveness for the actual warning?

 

As a teacher who uses that technique frequently in class (I love it when the rest of the class actually turns on the offender), I do not use that on a baseball field.  I tend to agree with you that the stare down more often escalates in that environment.  Two differences, IMO:

• In the classroom I want the offender to recognize their behavior, acknowledge it, and to build on it.  On the dirt, I just want them to knock it off.   I have no future desires for their long-term behavior.
• In the classroom there is a recognized power dynamic at play.  On the dirt, many of the participants fail to recognize or understand how that dynamic works.

That said, others use it effectively in their repertoire.