Dr. Niehoff NFHS Article on Behavior At High School Sporting Events

[SeeingEyeDog]

https://www.nfhs.org/articles/unacceptable-behavior-at-high-school-sporting-events-it-s-still-happening/?utm_source=delivra&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=The Voice - May 8 2024&utm_id=6992304&dlv-emuid=7dd8f661-8749-4c19-9bf8-4d987df22b8b&dlv-mlid=6992304

Likely not news for those of us who frequent U-E...

There's a lot of observations and facts here. In my opinion, what is missing is a response containing escalated consequences. I'm unclear what the expectations are. I'm unclear if the expectations are reasonable and able to be met nationally. I am however clear that the progressive discipline NFHS prefers we use and the concept of "keeping players and coaches in the game" when and where we can...is not working. I would be in favor of the OBR guidelines for disciplining players and coaches. Yeah, yeah...I know NFHS would push back, "These are kids! What about the kids?!?!" Part of the childhood experience should include yes, consequences for poor choices as an adult are different from poor choices made by a child. High school athletes are close enough to adulthood that they need greater consequences than a child traditionally gets and less than an adult gets.

Einstein allegedly said, "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." If we as a society decide we truly want the environments at high school sports to improve, we need to change how we operate them and how we discipline coaches and players and how we educate and discipline spectators. Without substantive changes in these areas, the environment will not improve...without an improvement to the environment, fewer and fewer people are going to sign up to officiate or umpire high school sports.

What do you have here, brothers?

~Dawg

[Kevin_K]

4 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

What do you have here, brothers?

 

[BigBlue4u]

Dr. Niehoff talks about bad behavior by coaches and players toward officials.  Has anyone come up with a reason why?

Here's your answer: It's because we, as officials, let them.  And, I get so sick and tired hearing officials say, "I should have ejected someone."  Well, duh! If officials actually ejected someone rather than say, "I should have......" Sportsmanship would improve dramatically.

I have always used an ejection as a last resort, unless a coach does something crazy.  And, believe me, I do take care of business when necessary.  There are way too many "He's a nice guy, but...." officials.  Nice guys who let coaches and players walk all over them. 

[The Man in Blue]

I’ll take a run down this Death Star trench . . . 
 

Since you mentioned “like OBR” I will point out the fatal flaw in that and in all of this: 

NO AUTHORITY.

NFHS is a national organization that puts out rule books.  That is it.  They have no authority over how games are played or how organizations use their rule books.  They have no authority over the schools, players, coaches, admins, or even us.

Depending on your state, your state organization is likely in this same boat.  They are a group with a voluntary membership base.  Their members may be loosely governed by the compact they agree to, but beyond that, your state org has NO AUTHORITY.  They especially have no authority over the general public that shows up to games.  They may have sanctions they can levy on participants, but even those are only as good as the school administrator who chooses to enforce or not enforce (or lie and say they enforced it).

So that brings us to the school level … and I already touched on that.  The governing body could REQUIRE a game administrator, but again, only as good as the person who does or does not do it.  We don’t want to put a burden on school employees.  (Yes, I am a teacher, so I will call out this crap.)

So what can we, the officials, do?  About the only thing we can do is just stop working games for problem schools.  The big part of that which gets missed is: we need to let the school and everybody know why.  
 

There is no authority to fix this.  It will continue to run rampant.

[MarsOmega]

15 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

I’ll take a run down this Death Star trench . . . 
 

Since you mentioned “like OBR” I will point out the fatal flaw in that and in all of this: 

NO AUTHORITY.

NFHS is a national organization that puts out rule books.  That is it.  They have no authority over how games are played or how organizations use their rule books.  They have no authority over the schools, players, coaches, admins, or even us.

Depending on your state, your state organization is likely in this same boat.  They are a group with a voluntary membership base.  Their members may be loosely governed by the compact they agree to, but beyond that, your state org has NO AUTHORITY.  They especially have no authority over the general public that shows up to games.  They may have sanctions they can levy on participants, but even those are only as good as the school administrator who chooses to enforce or not enforce (or lie and say they enforced it).

So that brings us to the school level … and I already touched on that.  The governing body could REQUIRE a game administrator, but again, only as good as the person who does or does not do it.  We don’t want to put a burden on school employees.  (Yes, I am a teacher, so I will call out this crap.)

So what can we, the officials, do?  About the only thing we can do is just stop working games for problem schools.  The big part of that which gets missed is: we need to let the school and everybody know why.  
 

There is no authority to fix this.  It will continue to run rampant.

What needs to happen is the schools need to step up or we need to step up. I think a school district in Virginia maybe?? started fining parents who misbehaved at sporting events. We as officials need to demand that schools and or the sections penalize misbehavior properly or we will stop working their games. Just my 0.02$.

[The Man in Blue]

2 hours ago, MarsOmega said:

What needs to happen is the schools need to step up or we need to step up. I think a school district in Virginia maybe?? started fining parents who misbehaved at sporting events. We as officials need to demand that schools and or the sections penalize misbehavior properly or we will stop working their games. Just my 0.02$.

My point is: what authority do they have to do that?  Second point: are they willing to actually do it?

Maybe it is because we are dealing with this behavioral issue on an everyday basis in my school district (teachers at one middle school staged a sick-out today), but when their is no real authority — or no willingness to act — to enforce something, people are not going to follow it.

Yes, all authority comes from the social contract we are all part of.  When there is no real consequence, there is no reason to adhere to it.

All a financial fine does is put a price of admission on the behavior.

[MarsOmega]

21 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

My point is: what authority do they have to do that?  Second point: are they willing to actually do it?

The authority they have is that they sent invoices to parents who misbehaved. Any parent who refused to pay was banned from all school functions until they did. 

I understand that a fine just means that the rich can misbehave as much as they want, but what else are they supposed to do.

I guess I have a different perspective given that I umpire in NY. Coaches here are paid school teachers and are fined if ejected from the game. This means that the typical school game is usually much calmer that a 10u little league game. 

[Velho]

On 5/10/2024 at 8:44 AM, The Man in Blue said:

Yes, all authority comes from the social contract we are all part of.  When there is no real consequence, there is no reason to adhere to it.

ding ding ding

 

[umpstu]

Yesterday our group had a quarterfinal game and they had 2 player ejections, a head coach restriction and two fans removed from the stands. One of the fans removed was one of the schools principals. He questioned our umpires integrity. Umpire crews selected for quarter final games are from neutral associations, meaning they've never seen these teams before. What are we supposed to do about that?

[Velho]

2 hours ago, umpstu said:

Yesterday our group had a quarterfinal game and they had 2 player ejections, a head coach restriction and two fans removed from the stands. One of the fans removed was one of the schools principals... What are we supposed to do about that?

2 hours ago, umpstu said:

He questioned our umpires integrity.

Now you got me very curious what he said.

 

[JonnyCat]

3 hours ago, umpstu said:

What are we supposed to do about that?

There are many things that could be done, but we lack the cohesiveness and backbone to ever do it.

How about never work that school's games ever again? And more importantly, tell them exactly why. Tell it to that Principal's face that he is a F*#Kwad, and he is the reason they don't get anymore umpires. And broadcast it on social media for everyone to hear.

Then have your association draft up rules and regulations in a contract that each school must abide by, or they get no umpires. What are they going to do, hire their own umpires?

In order for this to work, every umpire must also agree to not work games at SH*#ty schools or sites. There should be a list for all umpires to see of all the schools and organizations that are not abiding by the contract.

Unless there are clear and very punitive consequences for abuse, nothing will change.

And please, anyone, spare me the trope of "why punish the kids." It's the SH*#ty behavior of coaches and adults that is a detriment to the kids. F*#K those adults that can't act civilized. I'll happily do my job in a well controlled respectful atmosphere. If people don't behave themselves, then I don't work their games. I don't need the money that bad.

[umpstu]

8 hours ago, Velho said:

Now you got me very curious what he said.

 

Not exactly sure about that. Do know he protested being removed as he made the claim he couldn't be removed as he was the principal he was the site administrator. 

[Velho]

7 hours ago, umpstu said:

Do know he protested being removed as he made the claim he couldn't be removed as he was the principal he was the site administrator.

Wow. That's a good one. What was he saying previous that got him removed?

[SeeingEyeDog]

Imagine the changes we could make to the gameday environment if amateur umpires nationally staged a sick-out of our own...for the season. As He-Man might've said..."We have the power."

~Dawg

[umpstu]

7 hours ago, Velho said:

Wow. That's a good one. What was he saying previous that got him removed?

That I don't know

[The Man in Blue]

12 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Imagine the changes we could make to the gameday environment if amateur umpires nationally staged a sick-out of our own...for the season. As He-Man might've said..."We have the power."

~Dawg

Not umpires … but the entire teaching staff at a local middle school had a sick-out this past Friday … 

We’d never get it to happen because some guy will take an extra $10 to cross.

[Velho]

It's an interesting thing to think about how we get it changed. The strike/walk-out as discussed would certainly be effective but doing it at scale enough to impact is challenging as mentioned.

I'm trying to catch things early and influence at age 8-12 through managing culture and interactions as an umpire and trying to also get parents to be reflective. 

https://www.108baseballstories.com/parents.html 

https://twitter.com/108ballstories

 

[beerguy55]

On 5/10/2024 at 9:44 AM, The Man in Blue said:

Yes, all authority comes from the social contract we are all part of.  When there is no real consequence, there is no reason to adhere to it.

My admonition to my players was they'd be getting splinters on their ass.  My admonition to their parents was "well, I can't bench YOU".

Here's the paradox.

Partly - many people are still in the "stick and stones" mindset, and still believe verbal abuse isn't abuse...and that it's OK.  Some even think it's their noble right.

You also have a large number of ignoramuses in our "free countries" (and I speak of both Canada and the US) that truly believe our freedom of speech applies everywhere (not just government) and that it literally means I can say whatever the F*#K I want to whoever the F*#K I want, with no F*#King consequences.

And then, if the day comes when an umpire snaps and beats the ever living SH*# out of a coach NOBODY will have the balls to say the coach had it coming...or, less severely, at least understand what may have led to the assault.  (ie. the last straw)  Ump goes to jail, and nobody learns why it happened...so it's going to happen again.

I've said something similar the last 480 high school/university shootings that have happened.  I can GUARANTEE you that the guy who walked in there and pulled the trigger on his classmates over and over again was bullied...and in many cases by the very people he murdered.  And instead of acknowledging that simple fact people get their panties in a knot that I'm victim blaming...or "well, I got bullied in school and I didn't shoot anyone".  I'm not justifying the murder, nor am I saying the victims deserved it.  I'm applying a very real context that nobody wants to deal with.  And all that hand-wringing does is serve to ignore the very real fact that words have meaning, and that they have consequences.  And sometimes the consequences far outweigh the crime...but most of the time that's because nobody imposed more appropriate consequences early on.

Yes, those who are bullied (and a LOT of umpires are bullied) react in different ways - they fight back, they go into a shell, they kill themselves, they quit, or they LOSE IT.  And people still think "names will never hurt me".

[SeeingEyeDog]

Thank you @beerguy55. That was one of the best posts I've ever seen on this forum and speaks to elements of the human condition well beyond the baseball field.

~Dawg