Lineup Chaos

[BluTwister]

Here is one I had yesterday, and I can't find anything on my own. 

Middle School Baseball

HT Coach exchanges lineup with VT Coach

Batter hits base clearing triple, 2 runs score. VT Coach calls time and says I would like to appeal the previous play. The last batter just batted out of turn according to my provided lineup card. I have number 72 in that spot not number 74... HT Coach comes out and admits he transposed the wrong # but it was the correct kid and that what the official scorebook says should supersede issue. 

I ask how did you manage to write the wrong # for the kid on the line card VT Coach has? HT Coach, well I've got two brothers with numbers #72 & #74 (couldve been twins based on my observation)  and got them mixed up. VT coach goes well do we know who is who since we only have the last name and no first name or first name initial?!? Oh boy...

Partner and I confer privately, and both agree that the name supersedes the number but since HT Coach has admitted he put the wrong number down and we only have a last name and no first name or first name initial on both cards how do we know who is who?? 

Declare the batter out, put the runners back on base and have the coaches fix the line up cards. 

What was the correct course of action? 

 

 

[noumpere]

15 minutes ago, BluTwister said:

Here is one I had yesterday, and I can't find anything on my own. 

Middle School Baseball

HT Coach exchanges lineup with VT Coach

Batter hits base clearing triple, 2 runs score. VT Coach calls time and says I would like to appeal the previous play. The last batter just batted out of turn according to my provided lineup card. I have number 72 in that spot not number 74... HT Coach comes out and admits he transposed the wrong # but it was the correct kid and that what the official scorebook says should supersede issue. 

I ask how did you manage to write the wrong # for the kid on the line card VT Coach has? HT Coach, well I've got two brothers with numbers #72 & #74 (couldve been twins based on my observation)  and got them mixed up. VT coach goes well do we know who is who since we only have the last name and no first name or first name initial?!? Oh boy...

Partner and I confer privately, and both agree that the name supersedes the number but since HT Coach has admitted he put the wrong number down and we only have a last name and no first name or first name initial on both cards how do we know who is who?? 

Declare the batter out, put the runners back on base and have the coaches fix the line up cards. 

What was the correct course of action? 

 

 

I'm a little confused as to what was on the cards (and I'm assuming you had a card, too), but:

1) if you had an initial, and the brother's first names were different, go with that.  (As soon as you get an inkling that something like this is happening, ask the kid for his name -- they usually won't think quickly enough to lie if they don't know what is going on.)

2) If both brothers weren't in the lineup, then the worst you have is an unannounced sub; it's not BOO.

3) IF both were in the lineup and no initials (or the same initial), then (a) you should see this when you look at the lineups; (b) it's not really covered by rule so you can use your discretion.  I'd go with "it's a legitimate mistake; correct the lineups and play on."

 

[Velho]

What he said. Considering the stakes, move on.

Good lesson (for anyone, all of us - you just happened to be the one to go through it) - check the lineups given to the teams are the same as the ones given to you at plate meeting. If the only legible copy is the one they give you, have coach take a picture of it. 

Also good reminder to check for duplicate numbers and names. Friend of mine coached LL AS's to State 3 years in a row. He saw coaches playing games with players with the same name, i.e. they had 3 "Smith"s and the "wrong" one was regularly coming to bat at the wrong time.

 

[beerguy55]

25 minutes ago, BluTwister said:

HT Coach comes out and admits he transposed the wrong # but it was the correct kid and that what the official scorebook says should supersede issue.

I'm a little puzzled by this statement - is there yet another version of the lineup that would be deemed "official"?  ie. did this guy write a full lineup for the scorekeeper, and then manually write another copy for the VT.  Did you get a copy of the lineup too?

If the scorekeeper has the official lineup you go by that - especially if it says 74.

Unless both brothers are in the lineup it's not BOO/MYTAB, it's an unannounced sub.

If 72 isn't even on the bench (ie. only one of the brothers was at the game) then it's clearly an honest mistake.

Frankly - it should be the numbers that matter, not the names...and twins/siblings isn't the only issue...I remember coaching a game in 12U rec ball, girls fast pitch.  The other team had Kaley, Kailey, Kayley, Kealy, Hayley, and Kylie...all brunettes with pony tails, all the same shape and size...the ONLY way to tell them apart was their number.

[MadMax]

27 minutes ago, BluTwister said:

What was the correct course of action?

Establish context… 

28 minutes ago, BluTwister said:

Middle School Baseball

Operate within this context. To @noumpere’s points (he has several), we should err more to the side of “best intent” and participation, instead of jumping all over penalty. (“Ha! Gotcha! Umpire Bingo Card… punched!”). 

If this is the kid’s first at-bat (first time thru the lineup), then this either is a clarification or a correctable error. 

7 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Frankly - it should be the numbers that matter, not the names...

Nope. Not so. Names trump numbers. In OBR, how else do we have Jackie Robinson Day, or an All-Star Game? Then, in NFHS, we have that wonderful tidbit where a coach can add, at any time, additional players to the lineup card… and they can be in JV / Freshman uniform, regardless of a number being present on said jersey, or it being the same as a Varsity player. 

Then you get into the whole fracas of “poor schools” only having t-shirts, and not being able to afford “proper” number-sequenced uniforms. These “poor” schools should not be disenfranchised from playing simply because somebody wants to be anal and pedantic about numbers. 

Name. The name takes priority. 

… and that goes for every variation on “Kylie Smith” you can drum up. 

[Senor Azul]

From the 2016 BRD (section 499, p. 324):

FED:  The name listed on the lineup card establishes the official batting order. No penalty is provided if a player's name and number do not match in the scorebook or lineup card.

Also see current case book play 1.1.3 and 2006 online interpretation #8.

 

[beerguy55]

53 minutes ago, MadMax said:

Nope. Not so. Names trump numbers. In OBR, how else do we have Jackie Robinson Day, or an All-Star Game? Then, in NFHS, we have that wonderful tidbit where a coach can add, at any time, additional players to the lineup card… and they can be in JV / Freshman uniform, regardless of a number being present on said jersey, or it being the same as a Varsity player. 

Then you get into the whole fracas of “poor schools” only having t-shirts, and not being able to afford “proper” number-sequenced uniforms. These “poor” schools should not be disenfranchised from playing simply because somebody wants to be anal and pedantic about numbers. 

Name. The name takes priority. 

… and that goes for every variation on “Kylie Smith” you can drum up. 

That's why I said "should" - I know what the rule is, doesn't make it right.  Don't really care about Jackie Robinson Day or All Star Games for this discussion...they matter sfa when it comes to a Tuesday night ball game in the middle of nowhere with a bunch of 13 year olds, and two teams who've never played each other, and a first time ump who has never seen either. 

Yes, WHO is batting is what matters...I'm talking about identifying them.

I know there are ways around it if someone really wants to cheat, I simply think numbers are easier for everyone.  And it's on the coach to properly match the names to the numbers.  If there's a dispute the number "should" matter...even if it's a third or fourth consideration.

MLB baseball we can expect a level of recognizance that make names and numbers on jerseys moot...keeping in mind until the 30's MLB uniforms had neither. The numbers (except one day a year) are for fans to recognize from a distance, and to sell jerseys.

I'll wait for the day where identical twins, playing for the same team, with same build and haircut, and both bat/throw the same way, both take the lineup wearing 42, to see if it ends up mattering.

[BluTwister]

Thank you to all. Yes, home team is responsible for keeping the official scorebook through digital software.

HT Coach transposed his digital lineup incorrectly onto the written copies he furnished to the VT Coach and my partner.  

He only had last names written down with no first name initials or full names which added a layer of confusion given the VT coach's question regarding which brother is which. Neither one had batted yet when the controversy began. 

Looking back now, would probably ask to immediately see the official digital lineup inputted. But HT Coach didn't offer or show us his screen and I'm not big into commandeering a stranger's cell phone.

Feel like we enforced it correctly given the age-caliber of ball and the fact the HT Coach botched the written copies he provided. 

Now that I have experienced it. Going forward it will be on my radar to look out-cover it if I see the potential issue during the plate meeting lineup card exchange.  Kids with the same last names but no first initial or something to differ identity 

 

[The Man in Blue]

7 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Frankly - it should be the numbers that matter, not the names...and twins/siblings isn't the only issue...I remember coaching a game in 12U rec ball, girls fast pitch.  The other team had Kaley, Kailey, Kayley, Kealy, Hayley, and Kylie...all brunettes with pony tails, all the same shape and size...the ONLY way to tell them apart was their number.

 

Holy crap, beer!  Did you play against the first softball team I coached?!

I had:

2 Kylies (Kylie B. and Kylie R. -- Kylie R. was obviously kylier than Kylie B.)

2 Kaylas

1 Kaylie

2 Kaitlyns

2 Haleys 

4 sets of sisters (including my own daughters)

2 sets of twins

 

The happiest day of my life was the day our numbered jerseys arrived.

 

I swear that is ALL true.

[Velho]

42 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

I swear that is ALL true.

I can't decide if that would make my traditional coaching opening practice ritual of everyone naming everyone else without help easier or harder.

[BLWizzRanger]

 
Holy crap, beer!  Did you play against the first softball team I coached?!
I had:
2 Kylies (Kylie B. and Kylie R. -- Kylie R. was obviously kylier than Kylie B.)
2 Kaylas
1 Kaylie
2 Kaitlyns
2 Haleys 
4 sets of sisters (including my own daughters)
2 sets of twins
 
The happiest day of my life was the day our numbered jerseys arrived.
 
I swear that is ALL true.

Too bad you cant have nicknames like you can for boys teams....

Moose
Slim
Curly
Cheeseburger or Cheese for short
Sponge
Scoop

Wouldnt go over too well on a girls team....


Sent from my SM-F721U1 using Tapatalk

[noumpere]

20 hours ago, BluTwister said:

Thank you to all. Yes, home team is responsible for keeping the official scorebook through digital software.

HT Coach transposed his digital lineup incorrectly onto the written copies he furnished to the VT Coach and my partner.  

 

 

While the home team has the "official book," the lineups the coach gives you are the "official lineups."