Batting stance and strike zone?

[rhinolith]

NFHS

Batter begins the pitch sequence in a relatively upright stance. As pitch is being delivered, he squats down 4-5 inches as part of his load. He’s not intending to get small, it’s just part of his swing.
 

Is the strike zone based on the squatted, loaded lower position he’s in when the ball crosses the plate, or on his position when the pitcher starts the pitch?

Thank you very much.

 

[beerguy55]

My first statement would be it won't matter much, a batter that moves his head that much during the load/swing isn't going to have very much success.

FED says "natural batting stance".  OBR  says stance when "Prepared to hit the pitch"

I could use both to argue both, but I'd be inclined to go with the upright stance...that's what the catcher/pitcher are targeting, and he's ready to hit the pitch at that point.

[The Man in Blue]

I don’t pay much kind to what the batter does once the pitcher goes into his motions.  
 

The strike zone I set my eyes at are what the batter comes up and presents when he steps in and takes a stance.  To me, that is “prepared to hit” and a “natural stance.”

I can’t guess at what he might do after that, so both the pitcher and I need a known zone going into the pitch.

[Velho]

3 hours ago, rhinolith said:

Is the strike zone based on the squatted, loaded lower position he’s in when the ball crosses the plate, or on his position when the pitcher starts the pitch?

The rulebooks are clear as "the normal batting stance" (OBR, NCAA, FED are all the same zone as well (Fed "bottom being the knees" = OBR "hollow beneath the kneecap" = NCAA "bottom being the knee").

Only LL rules that the zones applies "when that batter swings at a pitch" [and a different zone of "batter’s armpits and the top of the knees"]

[Velho]

This is why I find the MLB umpire called strike zones so impressive. They are able to consistently mentally hold the zone to within sub-inch at high velocity and high break even as the batter moves around.

 

[The Man in Blue]

15 hours ago, Velho said:

 

The rulebooks are clear as "the normal batting stance" (OBR, NCAA, FED are all the same zone as well (Fed "bottom being the knees" = OBR "hollow beneath the kneecap" = NCAA "bottom being the knee").

Only LL rules that the zones applies "when that batter swings at a pitch" [and a different zone of "batter’s armpits and the top of the knees"]

 

Is that clear?  That was the initial question ... what is a "normal batting stance?"  When the batter approaches the plate and stands in?  Or when he adjusts during the pitch?  

The definition of the zone is clear ... but 'when does the zone get set?' is the question.

I don't call LL, so I'm sure there is language that covers this, but I'll be a bit of a smart aleck: What if the batter doesn't swing?  Is there no zone?  😉

[The Man in Blue]

45 minutes ago, Velho said:

This is why I find the MLB umpire called strike zones so impressive. They are able to consistently mentally hold the zone to within sub-inch at high velocity and high break even as the batter moves around.

 

I'll build off my last questions/comments ...

 

What does the batter moving around have to do with anything?  I'm curious what others' processes are with the zone.  (Great conversation topic!)  I'm always looking for improvements!

 

Once the batter is standing in, I step into position.  The insole of my inside foot is typically lined up with the point of home plate, giving me one solid point of reference.  I note where the batter is set up and use this for reference points ... how far is he from the inside of the plate, where he is in relation to the front/back of the box and the plate.  If he is way up in the box, the zone is going to seem high when the ball passes him.  If he is way back, it may seem low when it passes him.  I note those adjustments.  I set those points in my mind.  I will also make note of the catcher's position.  No, I don't use him to call the pitch, but his movement does give you information to consider.

As the pitcher goes into motion, I drop into my crouch.  My crouch height varies on where the top of the batter's zone was presented.  I set my eyes at the top of the zone, giving me a well-defined boundary.  One thing I try to do (it usually works, but not always) is, as I am crouching, identify where the batter's knees are and set the bottom bar of my mask "window" at the bottom of the zone (a slight head tilt accomplishes this).  If I can't line that up, I make note of where on my mask that bottom is.  This provides another solid reference point.  I don't care what the batter does after that, as my zone is locked in.  The trick is holding that as you track.

 

Wow ... that was harder to break down and describe than I thought it would be.

[Vegas_Ump]

In the context of little kids, one often sees a batter squat way down when he squares to bunt.  The pitch may be at a level that looks like it's over his head.  BUT.....where was his strike zone when he stepped in and set up?  That height is what matters no matter what the batter does to try to change it AFTER he sets.

Mike

Las Vegas

[Velho]

1 hour ago, The Man in Blue said:

what is a "normal batting stance?"  When the batter approaches the plate and stands in?

That's my interpretation. Maybe there is a firm cite out there (paging @Senor Azul)

In LL, if they don't swing we're supposed to impose the swinging zone. It only really comes into play when they have a goofy stance - mostly exaggerated squat they come up out of (imagine Rickey Henderson) or if they stand tall in their stance but come down on the swing (Eric Davis). Both end up being fairly rare.

Pragmatically, on a no swing it gets called as they're standing when the ball comes by.

So then, we have to ask why is the rule different?

[MadMax]

18 hours ago, Velho said:

Only LL rules that the zones applies "when that batter swings at a pitch"

So then it’s nose-to-toes, right? 
 

2 hours ago, Velho said:

This is why I find the MLB umpire called strike zones so impressive. They are able to consistently mentally hold the zone to within sub-inch at high velocity and high break even as the batter moves around.

Don’t be so complimentary, especially to some of the new guys. One of the new guys, in particular, struggles with consistency… typically over prolonged innings & games. 

Hmm. 

Anyway, you’ll notice that the for-broadcast faux-zone-box doesn’t change in height, whether it be Altuve or Judge. The thing is, these Major League guys only do < 50 plates per year. I give much more credence to Minor League guys, who are not only working more plates, but are seeing wider variances of hitters and pitchers. Then there are us Pro-Ams, how do you think we manage it all? I can say that I do 2-3 times as many plates per year as a MLB guy. Does it mean that I’m “better”, necessarily? No, certainly not. It just means I have to do as good, with more variables and variances, in a lesser context. 

This “lesser context” needs to be acknowledged. At the pro level, you “know what you bought”, and “you get what you paid for”. They don’t want mistakes rewarded. Then, when you go a step or two down into the development leagues and collegiate baseball, no pitching coach wants to see those “mistake” or “grey” pitches rewarded, either, but they at least acknowledge – and get most hitting coaches to acquiesce – that if they aren’t called ever so often, these games would take forever. Pros are paid to be there, amateurs aren’t. 

In my case, I don’t so much set the upper and lower bounds of the zone, as I do build them. With a batter new to the game, I compile any air swings he takes out of the box, where he stands (front-to-back as well as close-or-away) in the box, and what kind of posture he assumes, all into account. 

[Velho]

1 hour ago, MadMax said:

4 hours ago, Velho said:

This is why I find the MLB umpire called strike zones so impressive. They are able to consistently mentally hold the zone to within sub-inch at high velocity and high break even as the batter moves around.

Don’t be so complimentary, especially to some of the new guys. One of the new guys, in particular, struggles with consistency… typically over prolonged innings & games. 

Totally fair and I see what you're saying (I was comparing to the laymen, kind of in the way that even the last pitcher in the bullpen is amazing vs the world).

Does raise an interesting data split I haven't seen from Umpire Auditor (does anyone else do this publicly?) - let's see the misses by inning. I'd assume MLB is using that as a teaching tool (ok, imagine? hope? pray?)

[Senor Azul]

Mr. rhinolith, I think FED rule 2-35 (the definition of strike zone) answers your question. Here's the relevant part...

If the batter crouches or leans over to make the shoulder line lower, the umpire determines height by what would be the batter's normal stance.

Also see case book play 2.35.1 Situation.