Thunderheads Posted May 31, 2023 Report Share Posted May 31, 2023 11 minutes ago, JSam21 said: It is "thrown" because he no longer has firm and secure possession of the ball in either his hand or glove. Ok, fine. But regardless ... it's not 'lodged' .... Like I said, this is truly a play that could re-write/change wording in some rules Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSam21 Posted May 31, 2023 Report Share Posted May 31, 2023 1 minute ago, Thunderheads said: Ok, fine. But regardless ... it's not 'lodged' .... Like I said, this is truly a play that could re-write/change wording in some rules Why wouldn't it be lodged? Honest question. Is it because the NFHS doesn't have "Thrown ball from a player other than the pitcher" in their base award table? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjr_2013 Posted May 31, 2023 Report Share Posted May 31, 2023 I love this play. Enough to revive this old thing. At first glance I saw some mechanics that left something to be desired but nothing worth writing home about. On a second view is when I saw the ball go into the pocket, it made me say "... huh!" To my knowledge, there is no AR, rule, comment, or interpretation regarding an intentionally lodged ball like this. OBR 5.06(c)(7) Comment mentioned above comes close... "If a ball is intentionally placed inside a player’s uniform (e.g., a pants pocket) for the purpose of deceiving a base runner, the umpire shall call “Time.” The umpire will place all runners at least one base (or more if warranted, in the umpire’s judgment, in order to nullify the action of the ball being put out of play), from the base they originally occupied." Emphasis is mine. This doesn't apply here, because the ball was placed in the pocket for the purpose of keeping it, not for the purpose of deceiving a base runner. The only one deceived was his own teammate. Moving to just lodged balls generally.... OBR 5.06(b)(4)(F): A ball is considered lodged if, in the judgment of the umpire, the natural trajectory of the flight of the ball is interrupted long enough to affect further play.... WUM makes this umpire discretion under the guise of common sense and fair play as to bases to award. Here, I think this is satisfied. The natural trajectory of the flight of the ball is interrupted long enough to affect further play, which is evidenced by the second baseman being unable to locate the ball despite searching for it. If the ball is not lodged, F4 is able to locate it and potentially make a play. If no one knows that the game is not over, and the runners just keep on running while all the defensive players are dogpiling, I think there is an interesting case to be made that the ball was not interrupted long enough to affect further play... but I wouldn't go there (see below). NFHS 2-4-4: A baseball that remains on the playing field but has become wedged, stuck, lost, or unreachable, is defined to be a lodged ball. If the ball impacts any object in the course of play, stops abruptly, and does not fall or roll immediately, it is considered lodged. It is a dead ball (5-1-1f-3,4; 5-1-1g-4). Exception: if a ball becomes stuck in the webbing of the fielder’s glove, it remains in play. The glove/ball combination is treated as a live ball. The ball in the back pocket is not stuck, lost, or unreachable (at least to F2), but I think it is wedged. It is arguably stuck, lost, and un(reasonably)reachable to others, including F4. NFHS 5-1-1: A ball becomes dead immediately when... (g) a pitch or any other thrown ball... (4) lodges in an umpire's, catcher's, or offensive player's equipment or uniform... I think this is satisfied. It's not a pitch and while it doesn't feel like a throw, his act of placing the ball in the pocket has to be something. I think his release of the ball into the pocket is a throw. NFHS 8-3-3(c) makes this two bases from time of lodge. NCAA 8-3(l): If a fair batted or thrown ball becomes lodged in a player’s uniform, the ball shall be declared dead and bases awarded at the umpire’s discretion... This one is also umpire discretion (common sense and fair play), though by rule instead of interpretation. I think I've got a lodged thrown ball in all three sets. F2 was really stupid, but the rules don't generally let us penalize stupidity for the sake of stupidity on our own accord. Use the rules to penalize stupidity. I would have held a strong "no catch" signal on the U3K, and pumped it multiple times while moving up the line for a "no tag" when the runner advanced following the tag attempt. (Probably prevents this whole sh!tshow in the first place). When he tucks the ball away, come out and emphatically call time (several times because of the chaos). In Fed, give BR 2nd and score R2... OBR and NCAA, I don't think common sense and fair play advocate scoring multiple runs on a dropped third strike miscommunication. In fact, I think there is far more support for giving BR 1st and R2 3rd. If it was a U3K pitch that lodged in the backstop, that's what we would do. Wish Carl Childress was still around to chime in on this!! I'm definitely open to being proven wrong and having my mind changed on this too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderheads Posted May 31, 2023 Report Share Posted May 31, 2023 20 minutes ago, JSam21 said: Why wouldn't it be lodged? Honest question. Oh no, I get it ...... completely logical question, it's all good, ... it's discussion (good stuff!) It's not lodged because it doesn't fit the definition I personally think that saying "the catcher placed the ball in his pocket and thus this is a thrown ball that was lodged" isn't correct. Regardless of a baseball's 'status' .... I can't see this as being a 'thrown ball', AND ...the ball was PLACED intentionally in a pocket, ...not lodged. But hey ... that's me. And quite honeslty what makes this so interesting is that an umpire could legitimately argue both sides of this and be correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderheads Posted May 31, 2023 Report Share Posted May 31, 2023 4 minutes ago, mjr_2013 said: I think this is satisfied. It's not a pitch and while it doesn't feel like a throw, his act of placing the ball in the pocket has to be something. I think his release of the ball into the pocket is a throw. NFHS 8-3-3(c) makes this two bases from time of lodge. First off .........HI MATT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ok ......the quoted part above .... BUT HOW is this a throw? And please don't support it with "a baseball is either batted, pitched or thrown" 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSam21 Posted May 31, 2023 Report Share Posted May 31, 2023 59 minutes ago, Thunderheads said: First off .........HI MATT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ok ......the quoted part above .... BUT HOW is this a throw? And please don't support it with "a baseball is either batted, pitched or thrown" 😉 The NFHS definition of a throw- “A throw is the act of voluntarily losing possession through having the ball leave the hand for a purpose other than a pitch. It may result in the ball being bounced, handed, rolled, tossed or thrown” The ball left the hand for a purpose other than a pitch… so it’s now thrown. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderheads Posted May 31, 2023 Report Share Posted May 31, 2023 2 minutes ago, JSam21 said: The NFHS definition of a throw- “A throw is the act of voluntarily losing possession through having the ball leave the hand for a purpose other than a pitch. It may result in the ball being bounced, handed, rolled, tossed or thrown” The ball left the hand for a purpose other than a pitch… so it’s now thrown. Well, ... SH*# .... Ok then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSam21 Posted May 31, 2023 Report Share Posted May 31, 2023 19 minutes ago, Thunderheads said: Well, ... SH*# .... Ok then LOL... and before we go down the next rabbit hole... We can only have possession in the hand or glove, so the back pocket, isn't possession. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man in Blue Posted May 31, 2023 Report Share Posted May 31, 2023 5 hours ago, JSam21 said: A ball in play has 3 status... Pitched, Thrown, or Batted. It is no longer a pitched ball since the catcher secured it. It wasn't batted... So that can only leave one option. You didn’t provide any evidence of how it is thrown. You simply eliminated two choices and stopped. I can do that, too. It wasn’t a thrown ball since the catcher never threw it anywhere. It wasn’t a pitched ball since it had passed home plate and bounced out of the catcher’s mitt. It’s a batted ball. Or a witch. Let’s see if it floats! R2 stealing third base. F2 fires to F5 who secured the ball in his glove, then swings his glove to make the tag. During the swing, the ball flies out of his glove. You are telling me that is a thrown ball? If so, he lost it in the transfer and the tag should count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSam21 Posted May 31, 2023 Report Share Posted May 31, 2023 9 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said: You didn’t provide any evidence of how it is thrown. You simply eliminated two choices and stopped. I can do that, too. It wasn’t a thrown ball since the catcher never threw it anywhere. It wasn’t a pitched ball since it had passed home plate and bounced out of the catcher’s mitt. It’s a batted ball. Or a witch. Let’s see if it floats! R2 stealing third base. F2 fires to F5 who secured the ball in his glove, then swings his glove to make the tag. During the swing, the ball flies out of his glove. You are telling me that is a thrown ball? If so, he lost it in the transfer and the tag should count. The NFHS definition of a throw- “A throw is the act of voluntarily losing possession through having the ball leave the hand for a purpose other than a pitch. It may result in the ball being bounced, handed, rolled, tossed or thrown” The ball left the hand for a purpose other than a pitch… so it’s now thrown. But, now I'll play your semantical game... "It wasn’t a pitched ball since it had passed home plate and bounced out of the catcher’s mitt" It remains a pitched ball until it comes to rest or is secured. "R2 stealing third base. F2 fires to F5 who secured the ball in his glove, then swings his glove to make the tag. During the swing, the ball flies out of his glove. You are telling me that is a thrown ball? If so, he lost it in the transfer and the tag should count." How did the ball get from F2 to F5? It was thrown... and it will remain a thrown ball until time is called and/or the ball is pitched. What are the requirements to complete a tag? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderheads Posted May 31, 2023 Report Share Posted May 31, 2023 6 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said: You didn’t provide any evidence of how it is thrown. You simply eliminated two choices and stopped. I can do that, too. It wasn’t a thrown ball since the catcher never threw it anywhere. It wasn’t a pitched ball since it had passed home plate and bounced out of the catcher’s mitt. It’s a batted ball. Or a witch. Let’s see if it floats! R2 stealing third base. F2 fires to F5 who secured the ball in his glove, then swings his glove to make the tag. During the swing, the ball flies out of his glove. You are telling me that is a thrown ball? If so, he lost it in the transfer and the tag should count. he explained it via the definition of a throw from NFHS a few posts above Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man in Blue Posted May 31, 2023 Report Share Posted May 31, 2023 30 minutes ago, JSam21 said: The NFHS definition of a throw- “A throw is the act of voluntarily losing possession through having the ball leave the hand for a purpose other than a pitch. It may result in the ball being bounced, handed, rolled, tossed or thrown” The ball left the hand for a purpose other than a pitch… so it’s now thrown. I should have read the rest before posting … This seems more solid … but I’m still not onboard with a ball “only having three statuses.” I know, that is my problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSam21 Posted May 31, 2023 Report Share Posted May 31, 2023 1 minute ago, The Man in Blue said: I should have read the rest before posting … This seems more solid … but I’m still not onboard with a ball “only having three statuses.” I know, that is my problem. What other status of a live ball are talked about in the rules? When we are talking about base awards for balls going out of play, they are either pitched, thrown or batted. Is there another one that I am missing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLWizzRanger Posted May 31, 2023 Report Share Posted May 31, 2023 Possessed has my vote. Hear me out... If you have a balk, usually, the pitcher possesses the ball. Or in the hidden ball trick, the fielder has to have possession of the ball less he tries to hide it behind the base or in the grass. He can try to hide it in his pocket but we already have gone down that road... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjr_2013 Posted June 1, 2023 Report Share Posted June 1, 2023 8 hours ago, Thunderheads said: First off .........HI MATT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ok ......the quoted part above .... BUT HOW is this a throw? And please don't support it with "a baseball is either batted, pitched or thrown" 😉 Hi Jeff!! I think the others definition of a throw beat me to the punch… though I would have loved to say it’s because a baseball is either batted, pitched, or thrown to get you to pull your hair out. 🤣 Hope you’re having a good seaso 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Mike Posted June 1, 2023 Report Share Posted June 1, 2023 On 5/30/2023 at 6:13 AM, Senor Azul said: The act of putting a live ball in a fielder's uniform is almost always associated with a hidden ball trick. The FED does not have a rule or case play that covers this situation. But OBR actually has a rule that was added to the book in the last 5-6 years and it treats the situation as an immediate dead ball for fielders who intentionally place a live ball in their uniform (5.06c7 Comment). I Just for a little fun....and I know this is OBR, but take a look at Jose Altuve putting the ball in his pocket. Jose Altuve tried to pull off a hidden-ball trick by stashing the baseball in his pocket | MLB.com Umpires did not make any awards on the play. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senor Azul Posted June 1, 2023 Report Share Posted June 1, 2023 The attempted hidden ball trick by Jose Altuve in the video was from a game in 2016. As I posted earlier MLB didn't adopt a rule to cover the ball being put in the uniform intentionally until 2018 or 2019. So it seems the umpires had to make their own decision on Altuve's action and decided no harm no foul. The reason I mentioned the rule is to show how MLB decided to handle it--treat the uniform as dead ball territory by calling time immediately and letting the umpire rule on what penalty to invoke. I agree with their rule that intentionally placing a live ball in your pocket is the same as throwing the ball out of play and the immediate call of time. Apparently most of our members do not. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderheads Posted June 1, 2023 Report Share Posted June 1, 2023 5 hours ago, Senor Azul said: I agree with their rule that intentionally placing a live ball in your pocket is the same as throwing the ball out of play and the immediate call of time. Apparently most of our members do not. MLB, sure ... it's clearly spelled out. For NFHS, not so much, we had to search for it and discuss it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mussgrass Posted June 1, 2023 Report Share Posted June 1, 2023 While the umpire could or should have been more emphatic in his signals and calls, I don't think we should be trying to bail out the catcher here. He glanced at the umpire very quickly, twice I believe, and missed the safe signal on the tag. That is a live ball in this instance, no different than the catcher having it in his mitt. Kudos to the runners for continuing to run the bases, and to their coaches who kept sending them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man in Blue Posted June 1, 2023 Report Share Posted June 1, 2023 23 hours ago, JSam21 said: What other status of a live ball are talked about in the rules? When we are talking about base awards for balls going out of play, they are either pitched, thrown or batted. Is there another one that I am missing? I would say that is different … and maybe I am misreading something. Those are ways a ball gets out of play, not “status of a ball.” A ball is live or dead, that is its status. I still have a live ball as the defense is still under control of the ball. The ball has not left the field or the confines of “live ball territory.” It is not in a spot that is unreachable by the defense. The ball is not hung up or stuck while in flight. The ball has not been illegally contacted. I see no reason to call it a dead ball. I still contend calling that a “thrown ball” that is “out of play” is yucky (professional term there!) and we shouldn’t be bailing the defense out. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderheads Posted June 1, 2023 Report Share Posted June 1, 2023 18 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said: I would say that is different … and maybe I am misreading something. Those are ways a ball gets out of play, not “status of a ball.” A ball is live or dead, that is its status. I still have a live ball as the defense is still under control of the ball. The ball has not left the field or the confines of “live ball territory.” It is not in a spot that is unreachable by the defense. The ball is not hung up or stuck while in flight. The ball has not been illegally contacted. I see no reason to call it a dead ball. I still contend calling that a “thrown ball” that is “out of play” is yucky (professional term there!) and we shouldn’t be bailing the defense out. I guess, this is what I was trying to say before I was convinced this should be a lodged ball. But @The Man in Blue just re-opened my eyes to this and is on to something. This very well could take this conversation into a place we haven't discussed yet. On 5/31/2023 at 1:56 PM, JSam21 said: The NFHS definition of a throw- “A throw is the act of voluntarily losing possession through having the ball leave the hand for a purpose other than a pitch. It may result in the ball being bounced, handed, rolled, tossed or thrown” The ball left the hand for a purpose other than a pitch… so it’s now thrown. OK revisiting this post that I already responded to .... So, in the above, .... a baseball placed in a players mitt is a throw? So a ball in a glove is a thrown ball? (obviously it's the catch of a thrown ball, but after the catch)? For instance, ... the catcher catches a pitch ...he calls time, it's granted, and he walks to talk to his pitcher w/ the ball in his glove. Is the ball in his glove 'thrown'? No, it's not. Status=dead ball (ball in glove) Another one .... runner is stealing 2nd base, throw comes to F6 covering 2nd ..the throw skips and F6 misses the ball. Runner is safe. F6 picks up the ball from the ground with his hand and puts the ball inside his glove and tags the runner standing on 2nd (just out of habit). The ball in the glove is a throw? Status=live ball (ball in glove) NOT being difficult, just revisiting what we think we have correct using the rules (lodged ball out of play - ball in pocket) and saying, wait ...just wait Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man in Blue Posted June 2, 2023 Report Share Posted June 2, 2023 Since catch-and-carry was brought up earlier, what about a fielder who catches a ball in play and continues out of play? It wasn’t batted out of play. It wasn’t thrown out of play. It wasn’t pitched out of play. It is dead since it left the field of play. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSam21 Posted June 2, 2023 Report Share Posted June 2, 2023 9 hours ago, The Man in Blue said: I would say that is different … and maybe I am misreading something. Those are ways a ball gets out of play, not “status of a ball.” A ball is live or dead, that is its status. I still have a live ball as the defense is still under control of the ball. The ball has not left the field or the confines of “live ball territory.” It is not in a spot that is unreachable by the defense. The ball is not hung up or stuck while in flight. The ball has not been illegally contacted. I see no reason to call it a dead ball. I still contend calling that a “thrown ball” that is “out of play” is yucky (professional term there!) and we shouldn’t be bailing the defense out. I don’t know what other word to use besides “status”. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSam21 Posted June 2, 2023 Report Share Posted June 2, 2023 8 hours ago, Thunderheads said: I guess, this is what I was trying to say before I was convinced this should be a lodged ball. But @The Man in Blue just re-opened my eyes to this and is on to something. This very well could take this conversation into a place we haven't discussed yet. OK revisiting this post that I already responded to .... So, in the above, .... a baseball placed in a players mitt is a throw? So a ball in a glove is a thrown ball? (obviously it's the catch of a thrown ball, but after the catch)? For instance, ... the catcher catches a pitch ...he calls time, it's granted, and he walks to talk to his pitcher w/ the ball in his glove. Is the ball in his glove 'thrown'? No, it's not. Status=dead ball (ball in glove) Another one .... runner is stealing 2nd base, throw comes to F6 covering 2nd ..the throw skips and F6 misses the ball. Runner is safe. F6 picks up the ball from the ground with his hand and puts the ball inside his glove and tags the runner standing on 2nd (just out of habit). The ball in the glove is a throw? Status=live ball (ball in glove) NOT being difficult, just revisiting what we think we have correct using the rules (lodged ball out of play - ball in pocket) and saying, wait ...just wait Think of it this way. The moving of the ball from hand to hand, by definition, is a throw. Unless it has come from the pitcher to the batter while engaged to the plate, then it is a pitch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBlue4u Posted June 2, 2023 Report Share Posted June 2, 2023 On 5/30/2023 at 6:55 AM, ErichKeane said: I think we'd have a difficult time justifying this as 'for the purpose of deceiving the runner'. That said, if we DID judge that, the award would be odd, I'm not sure what the 'nullification' would be here. At least 1 base would be BR to 1st, but if the crew were to have killed it right then, I don't see how the crew would judge anything here. Guys, quit overthinking this. Who cares if the ball is thrown, placed, pushed, etc. etc. ( NFHS 10-2-g ) Score everybody. We are certainly (hopefully) not going to penalize the offense because the catcher put a live ball in his back pocket!!! 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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