Runner on 1st and 3rd

[Guest Cwood]

Runners on 1st and 3rd and batter hits fly ball to center. Runners hold and batter runs out fly ball and rounds 1st going hard to 2nd and center fielder confuses batter for the guy that held on 1st. Center fielder throws ball to 2nd thinking the runner tagged up. While confusion ensues runner on 3rd tags up and scores. Is it legal for batter to round 1st with runner already on 1st?

[Mussgrass]

Did the center fielder catch the ball? It sounds like he did but you did not say specifically. If so, then the batter-runner is out on the catch, not for passing R1. If the ball was not caught then the BR is out if he passed R1. And if he is out on for passing the ball stays live and the other runners can advance and be played on by the defense.

[noumpere]

11 minutes ago, Guest Cwood said:

Runners on 1st and 3rd and batter hits fly ball to center. Runners hold and batter runs out fly ball and rounds 1st going hard to 2nd and center fielder confuses batter for the guy that held on 1st. Center fielder throws ball to 2nd thinking the runner tagged up. While confusion ensues runner on 3rd tags up and scores. Is it legal for batter to round 1st with runner already on 1st?

Yes.

[beerguy55]

Once the batter passes the runner on first the batter is out.   If the fielder catches the ball before the batter passes the runner it doesn't really matter.

The batter is allowed to continue running the bases normally after getting out.

[Guest Cwood]

The fielder caught the ball. So the batter was out. The batter took off running and rounded 1st base with runner that was already there. The fielder thought the batter was the runner tagging up and through the ball to 2nd thinking it was the runner. 

[ErichKeane]

I see this as fine/legal.  The BR was out when either the ball was caught, or he passed R1 (whichever happened first).  Its up to the defense to determine who is out or not:

Rule 6.01 (a) (5)  “It is interference by a batter or a runner when any batter or runner or who has just been put out, or any runner who has just scored, hinders or impedes any following play made on a runner. Such runner shall be declared out for the interference of his teammate. If the batter or runner continues to advance after he has been put out, he shall not by that act alone be considered as confusing, hindering or impeding the fielders.

[MadMax]

2 hours ago, Guest Cwood said:

The fielder thought the batter was the runner tagging up and through [sic... supposed to be "threw"] the ball to 2nd thinking it was the runner.

And how is this a problem? 

[Mussgrass]

5 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Once the batter passes the runner on first the batter is out.   If the fielder catches the ball before the batter passes the runner it doesn't really matter.

The batter is allowed to continue running the bases normally after getting out.

Is the batter out for the passing if the ball is eventually caught? I was under the impression that we would not call the batter out for passing and instead should wait to determine if the catch is made. If he is out on the passing and it is a catch how does that affect the other runners?

I realize it would take a very fast runner to actually pass R1 before a fly ball reaches an outfielder.

[MadMax]

21 minutes ago, Mussgrass said:

I was under the impression that we would not call the batter out for passing and instead should wait to determine if the catch is made. If he is out on the passing and it is a catch how does that affect the other runners?

Here's one that springs to mind... 

R1. High... high high high fly ball that carries to center. F8 goes back to warning track and positions himself in a manner to appear to be catching the fly ball. R1 gets back to the bag to tag up... 

However. The fly ball is a good 20 feet over the fence for a HR. BR rounds 1B... where R1 is positioned, ready to run to 2B, based on F8's pantomime of catching the fly ball. 

Do we have Passing, sorry 'bout yer luck? Or do you call OBS on the F8? 🤔

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, Mussgrass said:

Is the batter out for the passing if the ball is eventually caught? I was under the impression that we would not call the batter out for passing and instead should wait to determine if the catch is made. If he is out on the passing and it is a catch how does that affect the other runners?

I realize it would take a very fast runner to actually pass R1 before a fly ball reaches an outfielder.

The fact is a batter/runner is out the moment they pass R1.  How it's supposed to be administered I don't know.

On a deep fly ball, or a really high fly ball, a batter can easily pass R1, especially if R1 is tagging up.

I don't think it changes anything as far as a runner's tag up requirements, with less than two out.

But, here's where it could matter with two outs.   R1/R3.   B/R hits a high fly ball, and reaches first and passes R1 1) before the ball is caught, and 2) after R3 scores.

Does that make it a time play to score the run, or do we still consider B/R to have not reached first base safely before the third out?

[Velho]

I find the topic interesting but still feel obligated to post this https://memes.getyarn.io/yarn-clip/1340f7c7-d1d5-4b83-ba77-6c7b797a3655

[Velho]

28 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

But, here's where it could matter with two outs.   R1/R3.   B/R hits a high fly ball, and reaches first and passes R1 1) before the ball is caught, and 2) after R3 scores.

I follow but with 2 outs, if it's caught nothing matters. No run scores since BR did not reach 1B safely.

I like where you're going with that though... lollygagging R1 on a dropped 2 out fly ball and BR passes R1 before R2 scores. Now we have some fun 😉

[noumpere]

3 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

The fact is a batter/runner is out the moment they pass R1.  How it's supposed to be administered I don't know.

 

This is from J/R:

[aaluck]

On 4/17/2023 at 4:40 PM, beerguy55 said:

But, here's where it could matter with two outs.   R1/R3.   B/R hits a high fly ball, and reaches first and passes R1 1) before the ball is caught, and 2) after R3 scores.

You are going to have to explain this one....

How could R3 ever score on a fly ball caught for the third out?  Further, how could R3 tag-up and score before the ball is caught?

[noumpere]

1 minute ago, aaluck said:

You are going to have to explain this one....

How could R3 ever score on a fly ball caught for the third out?  Further, how could R3 tag-up and score before the ball is caught?

If the rule were such that passing (in this instance) was called as soon as it happened, then that becomes the third out -- and it's after  first base.  So, If R3 was off with the batted ball (as he should be), it's entirely possible that R3 crosses the plate before the out.

So, we'd have to wait for an appeal.

 

Fortunately that's not the rule.

[ErichKeane]

On 4/17/2023 at 6:40 PM, noumpere said:

This is from J/R:

What is J/R in this situation?  I'm not familiar with that.  But that guidance sounds logical to me.

[aaluck]

5 minutes ago, noumpere said:

If the rule were such that passing (in this instance) was called as soon as it happened, then that becomes the third out -- and it's after  first base.  So, If R3 was off with the batted ball (as he should be), it's entirely possible that R3 crosses the plate before the out.

 

Got it!!!  That's kind of a hard one to wrap your head around with a fly-out third out.

[aaluck]

18 minutes ago, ErichKeane said:

But that guidance sounds logical to me.

What I don't understand is WHY do they do this?  What if the guy doesn't catch the ball?  You have just given them an out and probably negated a run on the dropped ball with R3.

[ErichKeane]

7 minutes ago, aaluck said:

What I don't understand is WHY do they do this?  What if the guy doesn't catch the ball?  You have just given them an out and probably negated a run on the dropped ball with R3.

Because ballplayers sometimes just aren't paying attention?  Or decide its such an easy fly, mind as well just lollygag.  If everyone always did the logical thing on the field, 2/3 of an umpire's job would disappear

[beerguy55]

36 minutes ago, aaluck said:

You are going to have to explain this one....

How could R3 ever score on a fly ball caught for the third out?  Further, how could R3 tag-up and score before the ball is caught?

With two outs the runners are going on contact...nobody should be tagging up...

So assume R3 goes like he should...maybe R1 doesn't...he has a brain cramp...or just does something stupid and B/R passes him - without the J/R guidance it becomes a silly situation.

[aaluck]

31 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

With two outs the runners are going on contact...nobody should be tagging up...

So assume R3 goes like he should...maybe R1 doesn't...he has a brain cramp...or just does something stupid and B/R passes him - without the J/R guidance it becomes a silly situation.

Got it.  Cant get the whole fly ball third out thing, out of my head.