CBO for LL All Stars

[Lou B]

In the past LL has had tournament rules designed to encourage teams to have more player/give more players the Tournament exlerience.

About Face!

Mandatory CBO discourages teams from carrying more players.  I can forsee more leagues asking for Waivers from their DA to carry less than 12 players.

[JonnyCat]

The problem with the old rules was that it often put some kids that were not legitimate All Star players on the team. One reason was to get to the 13 player threshold so you could have 1 manager and 2 coaches, the other was to get around mandatory time playing defense. With the new rules, there is no mandatory time on defense.

I like the rule changes for All Stars. I often believed that the rule hamstrung the managers into not always putting the best players on the field. LL regular season is all about participation. All Stars is about winning. It's win or go home. Leagues should have the ability to put their best players on the field.

I think you'll probably be seeing smaller rosters in All Stars going forward. As an umpire, I love CBO. Under the old rules, it was nearly impossible to write down all of the changes made throughout the game on those tiny lineup cards. And it often took too much time, especially when a team carried 14 players and 5 batters had to be substituted in sometime during the game. And some of those crazy defensive changes made in the later innings took a long time, as well.

I suspect the change had much to do with ESPN and pace of play. ESPN likes the games to be able to be packaged in a 2 hour time frame. Under the old rules, offensive changes were made during an inning, and disrupted play. Now with CBO, there will be no inning disruptions for a substitute batter. Defensive changes, now if any, will usually be made in between innings. So the pace should be improved. The only during an inning disruption should be for substitute pitchers. But that's fine with ESPN, they can go to commercial during those changes. They usually didn't for a substitute batter.

I think that was the impetus for the change. Interestingly enough, none of the new All Star rules changes was brought up before LL Congress this year. They kind of came out of left field.

[umpstu]

What is CBO?

[Lou B]

CBO = Continuous Batting Order.  Every player at the game is put on the batting order.  If you have12, all 12 bat in order, if you have 14, all 14 bat in order. This also eliminates the use of a Special Pinch Runner.

[834k3r]

On 12/17/2022 at 8:27 PM, JonnyCat said:

I like the rule changes for All Stars. I often believed that the rule hamstrung the managers into not always putting the best players on the field. LL regular season is all about participation. All Stars is about winning. It's win or go home. Leagues should have the ability to put their best players on the field.

I think you'll probably be seeing smaller rosters in All Stars going forward. As an umpire, I love CBO. Under the old rules, it was nearly impossible to write down all of the changes made throughout the game on those tiny lineup cards. And it often took too much time, especially when a team carried 14 players and 5 batters had to be substituted in sometime during the game. And some of those crazy defensive changes made in the later innings took a long time, as well.

I agree with you. As an umpire, I'm a fan of the CBO and mandatory play rule changes.

As a parent though, I'd be disappointed; there's a good chance my son (played on our local LL tournament team for two years) wouldn't have made the team his first year. The rule changes will hurt the fringe players and keep them from gaining experience.

[Lou B]

The old rule put non-legitimate players on the team, yeah, there's a huge drop off between player 12 and player 13.  No way player 13 should be an All Star.

The vast vast majority of All Star Teams never make it past Districts, let alone Sectionals, States or Regionals.  Does it really matter if those teams carry an extra player or two to allow those kids the opportunity to play in The Tournament?

I guess that's just me!

[Velho]

Eliminating the loss of coaches for not enough players furthered this as well.

[834k3r]

18 hours ago, Lou B said:

The old rule put non-legitimate players on the team, yeah, there's a huge drop off between player 12 and player 13.  No way player 13 should be an All Star.

The vast vast majority of All Star Teams never make it past Districts, let alone Sectionals, States or Regionals.  Does it really matter if those teams carry an extra player or two to allow those kids the opportunity to play in The Tournament?

I guess that's just me!

I guess one upside is that we should see a slight increase in quality of play; without mandatory play or at bat rules, there should be less of a drop off when "Player 13" comes up to bat or subs in as F9.

[JonnyCat]

On 12/19/2022 at 2:04 PM, Lou B said:

The old rule put non-legitimate players on the team, yeah, there's a huge drop off between player 12 and player 13.  No way player 13 should be an All Star.

The vast vast majority of All Star Teams never make it past Districts, let alone Sectionals, States or Regionals.  Does it really matter if those teams carry an extra player or two to allow those kids the opportunity to play in The Tournament?

I guess that's just me!

In my experience, for most LL All Star teams, there's a huge drop off after your #9 player, and sometimes earlier than that.

Couple of things I really didn't like about carrying 13 and using the one at bat as MPR. If you carried 13, you were giving up 4 AB's per game that resulted more often than not in 4 outs. Tough to give up that many outs in a 6 inning game. Also, the kids that were subs only usually got 1 AB and no field time. That to me was always a slap in the face to those kids. You practice and practice only to get 1 AB. It always seemed hollow to me.

I want to see the best teams on the field during All Stars. I think the new rule is for the best. Get the kids that belong on the team, even if it means fewer than 12, and that means each kids gets 2-4 AB's per game, depending on the score. They might not get field time, but at least they get to bat. And with unlimited defensive substitutions, I bet you'll be seeing more kids get field time. You're not loosing a big bat and maybe a good player. If all the kids are pretty good, then you should be able to get the bench players in. It's just way easier to sub with CBO, so that should bode well for most managers! 

We'll see how it plays out. Should be interesting, and we'll see how LL might tweak the rules going forward. I hear they sometimes do that! 

[kylejt]

First, nobody, I mean NOBODY asked Williamsport for this change. So they did this on their own. I suspect this is because many times the changes were taking a lot of time on their televised shows, and they were looking for a way to reduce this. I recall recently, when they came back from commercial, there was still a manager and PU standing at the fence trying to figure things out. That makes for bad TV. 

I love CBO for the regular season, as it means every player is in the game until the very end. No more kids packing their bags in the fourth inning, knowing they were done for the day. My league, because of my pushing, went to it 20 years ago, and I was able to convince our District to go that way about 10 ago. 

But All Stars is a whole different animal, and it IS all about winning. But to WP, it's all about their TV show, so we get whatever they want to do for the post season. 

Also, DA's signing off on less than 12 better have a really legit reason, as any eligible kid (read: Parent) left off the team is going to have a real beef with that. Yeah, that's gonna be fun to read about next season.

[Richvee]

Curious. How are they handling a missed AB due to injury or ejection? Auto out? Collapse lineup? Can an injured player return after missing an AB? 

[Lou B]

In regular season CBO if a player due up is injured, ill, ejected, went home, ... the spot is skipped over with no penalty.  If the injured/ill player feels better later in the game he/she can go back into the game and simply bat in his/her previous spot in the order. 

[LC Ump]

1 hour ago, Lou B said:

In regular season CBO if a player due up is injured, ill, ejected, went home, ... the spot is skipped over with no penalty.  If the injured/ill player feels better later in the game he/she can go back into the game and simply bat in his/her previous spot in the order. 

The same will apply in tournament play. From the 2023 LL Rules "Significant Updates" on the LL website:

b. If a player is injured, becomes ill, or must leave the game site after the start of the game, the team will skip over him/her when his/her time at bat comes up without penalty. If the injured, ill, or absent player returns, he/she is merely inserted into their original spot in the batting order and the game continues. Also, if a player arrives later to a game site, if the manager chooses to enter him/her in the lineup (see Rule 4.01 NOTE 2), he/she would be added to the end of the current lineup.

[Richvee]

7 hours ago, LC Ump said:

The same will apply in tournament play. From the 2023 LL Rules "Significant Updates" on the LL website:

b. If a player is injured, becomes ill, or must leave the game site after the start of the game, the team will skip over him/her when his/her time at bat comes up without penalty. If the injured, ill, or absent player returns, he/she is merely inserted into their original spot in the batting order and the game continues. Also, if a player arrives later to a game site, if the manager chooses to enter him/her in the lineup (see Rule 4.01 NOTE 2), he/she would be added to the end of the current lineup.

Sort of leaves the door wide open to shenanigans late in a game when #11 or 12 are due up in a big spot and skipping him would bring up your best hitter.  

[LC Ump]

4 hours ago, Richvee said:

Sort of leaves the door wide open to shenanigans late in a game when #11 or 12 are due up in a big spot and skipping him would bring up your best hitter.  

I agree. Great observation. The law of unintended consequences that will require some "preventative officiating?"

We use CBO in our league's regular season and playoffs, and it's come up then, especially playoffs. No question it could come up during tournament season, so I'm asking our DA to put it on the agenda for our next district meeting.

[JonnyCat]

5 hours ago, Richvee said:

Sort of leaves the door wide open to shenanigans late in a game when #11 or 12 are due up in a big spot and skipping him would bring up your best hitter.  

 

36 minutes ago, LC Ump said:

I agree. Great observation. The law of unintended consequences that will require some "preventative officiating?"

Shenanigans could happen, but no way as an official I am touching that. If the coach says a player is injured or whatever, what are you going to do? Make the kid bat because you think the coach is lying? What if he really is injured or ill, and you make the kid bat? How are you going to prove the kid is fit to bat and the coach is lying?

IMO, that's either the TD, or Little League's problem. I'm not getting in the middle of that.

[LC Ump]

30 minutes ago, JonnyCat said:

 

Shenanigans could happen, but no way as an official I am touching that. If the coach says a player is injured or whatever, what are you going to do? Make the kid bat because you think the coach is lying? What if he really is injured or ill, and you make the kid bat? How are you going to prove the kid is fit to bat and the coach is lying?

IMO, that's either the TD, or Little League's problem. I'm not getting in the middle of that.

Yes, agree with the above completely. By "preventative officiating" I meant addressing the potential for shenanigans at the BOD/DA level in advance of the season or tournament - to support the "spirit" of the rule, which I believe is to give managers more freedom/opportunity to give more players more playing time, not a way to gain a competitive advantage.

[Velho]

6 hours ago, Richvee said:

Sort of leaves the door wide open to shenanigans

100%. Let the parents point their wraith at the coach on that one I guess.

Note: If the team gets to 8 players, the 9th slot is an out. 

[Richvee]

I’ve seen it first hand. There was a group some years back that used CBO in their travel tournaments in this area. I only had one experience with a lower order hitter “ puking in the bathroom” and couldn’t bat. Ploy or not, it didn’t work. Leadoff hitter popped out. Ballgame 

That group also played auto out for an ejection. That has unintended consequences as well. ( walking guys to get to the out, or the offense taking crazy chances on the bases because out # 3 is up next.). 

[Velho]

2 hours ago, Richvee said:

Leadoff hitter popped out. Ballgame 

"Ball don't lie" as they say (mostly basketball players in my experience)

2 hours ago, Richvee said:

That group also played auto out for an ejection. That has unintended consequences as well

"There are no solutions, only trade-offs" - Thomas Sowell

 

If we just got rid of the adults that act like children, this youth baseball thing could be fun.  

[834k3r]

13 hours ago, Richvee said:

Sort of leaves the door wide open to shenanigans late in a game when #11 or 12 are due up in a big spot and skipping him would bring up your best hitter.  

Little League managers and coaches are above reproach, @Richvee! I'm shocked at your allegation! Shocked!

[Richvee]

3 hours ago, Velho said:

 

If we just got rid of the adults that act like children, this youth baseball thing could be fun.  

I was always fond of the quote 

“Youth baseball is best played by orphans”.