Order of calls

[spark2212]

Why do umpires call fair/foul before calling catch/no catch? Seems to me like it’s more important for the baserunners to know whether or not they have to tag up.

[DevildogUmp]

I would say because the timing matters:

1. Status of ball (fair/foul) is determined the instant it is touched by the fielder.

2. Catch/no catch is determined after the fielder has shown possession and voluntary release.

Fly ball touched in the area of the foul line as the fielder is moving into foul ground and juggling the ball. If the ball is touched fair, you need to make the call then not a minute later when the fielder ends up dropping the ball.

Plus, remember in a tag up situation, runners don't have to wait for the catch/no catch determination. They can advance on first touch. So when the umpire is calling fair/foul, he is also letting the runner(s) know he has a touch and they could advance.

[spark2212]

6 minutes ago, DevildogUmp said:

I would say because the timing matters:

1. Status of ball (fair/foul) is determined the instant it is touched by the fielder.

2. Catch/no catch is determined after the fielder has shown possession and voluntary release.

Fly ball touched in the area of the foul line as the fielder is moving into foul ground and juggling the ball. If the ball is touched fair, you need to make the call then not a minute later when the fielder ends up dropping the ball.

Plus, remember in a tag up situation, runners don't have to wait for the catch/no catch determination. They can advance on first touch. So when the umpire is calling fair/foul, he is also letting the runner(s) know he has a touch and they could advance.

But consider this: there’s a runner on first. Low line drive down the right field line is maybe caught, maybe trapped in short right field right on the line. As a baserunner, if it’s foul, I don’t need to know that right away. If it’s fair, I need to know which direction to run. What if the extra hesitation waiting for the catch/no catch call results in the runner being forced out at second?

[spark2212]

Just now, spark2212 said:

But consider this: there’s a runner on first. Low line drive down the right field line is maybe caught, maybe trapped in short right field right on the line. As a baserunner, if it’s foul, I don’t need to know that right away. If it’s fair, I need to know which direction to run. What if the extra hesitation waiting for the catch/no catch call results in the runner being forced out at second?

Basically, nothing bad will happen because the umpire waited to tell me fair or foul. But I can get screwed if I don’t know whether or not the ball was caught. 

[Jimurray]

57 minutes ago, spark2212 said:

Basically, nothing bad will happen because the umpire waited to tell me fair or foul. But I can get screwed if I don’t know whether or not the ball was caught. 

The umpire will not know if the fair ball, fair being touched but not yet a catch, will be a catch until he sees voluntary release or it’s equivalent. And you have to take your chances or wait for the ruling. 

[spark2212]

7 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

The umpire will not know if the fair ball, fair being touched but not yet a catch, will be a catch until he sees voluntary release or it’s equivalent. And you have to take your chances or wait for the ruling. 

I’m talking about cases where possession is clear. If the umpire doesn’t know whether or not it was caught by all means he should call fair/foul.

[noumpere]

7 hours ago, spark2212 said:

I’m talking about cases where possession is clear. If the umpire doesn’t know whether or not it was caught by all means he should call fair/foul.

The umpire will signal catch as soon as he can.  Choosing to signal fair / foul after the catch / no catch will only delay that signal, it won't make the catch/no catch determination come any earlier.

[maven]

13 hours ago, spark2212 said:

Why do umpires call fair/foul before calling catch/no catch? Seems to me like it’s more important for the baserunners to know whether or not they have to tag up.

The question assumes facts not in evidence, namely that anyone looks at the umpire to know when to tag up (or leave). They're watching the fielder, and they leave as soon as he touches the ball, not when the umpire signals catch.

Tag situations occur when a fielder has a chance to catch the ball, whether or not he makes the catch. So runners' actions should not be substantially affected by the order of calls. R2, R3 tagging will work this way.

R1 doesn't generally tag (if he does, see the previous paragraph). If not, he'll need to know catch/no catch. But if the ball's on the ground, he'll have more time to read the umpire's call, so a delayed call won't affect him much either.

[bugaboo]In fact, amateur umpires often call catch/no catch WAY too fast anyway, before the action of the catch is complete (secure possession in hand/glove + voluntary release). I'd much rather have a delayed correct call than have to unscrew up all the action that occurs after an incorrect call. We get questions here all the time of the form: "I screwed up catch/no catch by calling it way too fast—what should I do to fix it?" The answer is: go back in time, learn the proper mechanics, and do it right the first time.[/bugaboo]

 

[Vegas_Ump]

Here's my take:

The list of call priority I think is based on a two-man crew.  So a series of events might prompt the partner umpires to position based on information they are collecting quickly!

Priority 1:  Fair/Foul - If it's foul, the ball is dead, and you re-set.  If it's fair, something else is likely to happen.  But a call might need to be urgently made!  Example, a nubber at the plate.  PU needs to rule foul if the batter was hit while in the box, tangle-untangle, RLI, etc.  Huge priority there! 

Priority 2:  Catch/No-catch.  A fly ball to center is clearly over fair territory.  But a ball close to the line might be foul.  I was told that for scoring purposes, a pop fly caught in foul territory needs to be articulated that way for the benefit of the official scorer.  (For youth ball, probably a nit.)  If a popup is dropped, you need to get back to Priority 1 quick!

Priority 3:  The play where the ball takes you.  Clearly the duties of which umpire covers what is covered in your pre-game, so you react to that. And trust your partner.

Priority 4:  The play where the ball isn't!  Consider that the umpires are looking for touches on the bases while they are positioning for Priority 1, 2, or 3, and might get really busy!  An example here is a tag up on a Sac Fly.  Umpires practice their mechanics to make all of this look seamless.

In conclusion, these "priorities" are really aids to your positioning and crew coordination.  Don't get hung up on these, but if you visualize a situation, you will always be there to make the right call.  This is a useful teaching aid I have used for years.

JMO.

Mike

Las Vegas

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, Vegas_Ump said:

Here's my take:

 

Priority 2:  Catch/No-catch.  A fly ball to center is clearly over fair territory.  But a ball close to the line might be foul.  I was told that for scoring purposes, a pop fly caught in foul territory needs to be articulated that way for the benefit of the official scorer.  (For youth ball, probably a nit.)  If a popup is dropped, you need to get back to Priority 1 quick!

 

I've noted MLB umps foregoing any catch signal on no sht caught foul flies but still will give a foul signal for the scorekeeper.

[BrainFreeze]

I had learned that the order of calls on a caught foul ball was signal foul ball and then the catch.  

During a game when I was coaching, I asked the PU whether the caught fly ball was fair/foul. 

I had the book in my hands when I asked, and I assumed (yep..) that he knew I was asking so I could score it correctly.

He got irate with me -- raised his voice that he called it out, what difference did it make??

Yeesh...

 

 

 

[Jimurray]

10 minutes ago, BrainFreeze said:

I had learned that the order of calls on a caught foul ball was signal foul ball and then the catch.  

During a game when I was coaching, I asked the PU whether the caught fly ball was fair/foul. 

I had the book in my hands when I asked, and I assumed (yep..) that he knew I was asking so I could score it correctly.

He got irate with me -- raised his voice that he called it out, what difference did it make??

Yeesh...

 

 

 

In reading the score keeping rules I don’t see where that’s a statistic required to be noted. Who cares if  B1 popped up to F3 fair or foul?  But apparently it is noted and needed and I will signal appropriately. 

[BrainFreeze]

Just now, Jimurray said:

In reading the score keeping rules I don’t see where that’s a statistic required to be noted. Who cares if  B1 popped up to F3 fair or foul?  But apparently it is noted and needed and I will signal appropriately. 

You're correct, it's not related to a statistic.  But on the play I would have scored it as either F9 or FO9.

Because umpires who are recovering coaches don't pick too many nits when they're keeping score....   

[SeeingEyeDog]

From the "Nobody Asked Me File"...

Just a mechanic reminder...draw an imaginary line from the point of the plate through about the middle of the 1B-coach's box. Draw another line from the point of the plate to about where the 1B-man plays. Draw the same imaginary lines on the 3B side of the field.

If a ball is travelling or travels through this vector? It needs to be indicating foul/fair...and LOUDLY called foul, if foul. (We do not verbalize fair batted balls, of course...) 201 Class? If fair, in order to look like a pro and impress The Desirables...walk a few steps up the line while pointing and pumping your fist for a fair call.

~Dawg