Hidden ball trick balk ... we got it!

[The Man in Blue]

Game 3 of the day and #13 of 14 over a four-day stretch in the record-setting and unusually cruel Louisiana heat.  NFHS rules tournament semi-final with a team that just pulled off an upset to advance to this game.  I'm on the bases and my focus is waning a bit and I knew it. 

0-0 in the 3rd inning with nobody out, when the offense loads the bases with a couple of walks and a shallow hit to the outfield.  Pitcher is futzing around the top of the mound.  All of the sudden I hear the second baseman, "Blue, blue, blue, blue, BLUE!"  I turn around and he shows me the ball and tags the runner who had gotten his lead.  The runner slumps and looks to the sky in one of those "How did I fall for that" reactions.

I call "TIME!"  I motion for my partner because I want to make damn sure I saw what I thought I saw.  I hear one smart fan yelling, "That's a balk!"  The defense's players start to crowd us with their chatter and I motion them back.  I ask my partner, "Where was the pitcher?" 

My partner says, "He wasn't on the rubber." 

I ask, "But where was he?"  

My partner, "He was up scuffing around by the rubber, but he wasn't on it."

I smirk and sigh.  "He can't be there.  That's what I thought, but I wanted to make sure.  We are going to have to balk in a run.  Let me explain it to the coach before we make the call."

I was amazed.  The coach just smiled and nodded.  Nobody complained ... not even after the inning turned into a 10 run inning that led to a 10-0 mercy rule game.  The only comment came from the second baseman the next inning and he said it with a smile, "Blue, we really needed that out."

A few players did ask about the pitcher "being on the dirt" to which I explained he can be on the dirt (because not all mounds are the same size), but he basically cannot be up on the mound.

I came home and double-checked the language on the rule.  I think we did a good job with the call and the explanation.  I think it is the first time I have ever had a hidden ball trick in one of my games though!

[JonnyCat]

FED has it that the pitcher can't "position himself within approximately five feet of the pitchers plate without having the ball." 6-2-5.

I always thought that was strange. Am I supposed to carry a tape measure in my bags?

[noumpere]

4 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

I always thought that was strange. Am I supposed to carry a tape measure in my bags?

No.  that' why it says approximately.

 

I didn't need a tape measure to measure the 10" mound height either.

[Replacematt]

2 hours ago, noumpere said:

No.  that' why it says approximately.

 

I didn't need a tape measure to measure the 10" mound height either.

I really hope this isn't an allusion to a 10"...ahem...measuring tool.

[JonnyCat]

4 hours ago, noumpere said:

No.  that' why it says approximately.

 

I didn't need a tape measure to measure the 10" mound height either.

In case you missed it, that was a joke. Did I need to put in a funny emoji for you? I apologize for my omission.

[The Man in Blue]

9 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

FED has it that the pitcher can't "position himself within approximately five feet of the pitchers plate without having the ball." 6-2-5.

I always thought that was strange. Am I supposed to carry a tape measure in my bags?

It is a bit of a strange wording on NFHS’s part, but I like that they word it that way.  Like I told the players, they couldn’t say “on the dirt” because the size of the dirt spot is not consistent from field to field.  They really cannot say “on the mound” for the same reason.  I believe the “approximately 5 feet” will encompass the slope of the mound in most cases.

Additionally, you don’t want to cause fights over the difference between 4’11” and 5’1”.  (Part of the reason I find it humorous when people cite 20 feet as a magic number for defensive positioning on a pickoff attempt.  “I don’t have a balk coach; he was 19’11 1/2” from the bag!”)

[JonnyCat]

52 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

It is a bit of a strange wording on NFHS’s part, but I like that they word it that way.  Like I told the players, they couldn’t say “on the dirt” because the size of the dirt spot is not consistent from field to field.  They really cannot say “on the mound” for the same reason.  I believe the “approximately 5 feet” will encompass the slope of the mound in most cases.

Additionally, you don’t want to cause fights over the difference between 4’11” and 5’1”.  (Part of the reason I find it humorous when people cite 20 feet as a magic number for defensive positioning on a pickoff attempt.  “I don’t have a balk coach; he was 19’11 1/2” from the bag!”)

I can imagine having a semantics discussion with a coach over what constitutes approximately 5'. 

It's interesting, especially from my perspective as a contractor for over 35 years, how most people can't estimate short distances very well. I use a tape measure nearly every day, so I'm pretty good about estimating distances up to 20' or so. In my experience, an estimated distance of say 10' or so, will greatly vary from person to person. And it especially varies when estimating vertical vs horizontal distances. I noticed this a lot during the pandemic with the 6' social distance. 6' is not very far, most peoples wingspan is about that length. People had a hard time estimating what 6' actually was, at least in my experience. (Uh oh, I better be careful, I'm bordering on politics here. Don't want to get this thread locked up!)

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

It is a bit of a strange wording on NFHS’s part, but I like that they word it that way.  Like I told the players, they couldn’t say “on the dirt” because the size of the dirt spot is not consistent from field to field.  They really cannot say “on the mound” for the same reason.  I believe the “approximately 5 feet” will encompass the slope of the mound in most cases.

Additionally, you don’t want to cause fights over the difference between 4’11” and 5’1”.  (Part of the reason I find it humorous when people cite 20 feet as a magic number for defensive positioning on a pickoff attempt.  “I don’t have a balk coach; he was 19’11 1/2” from the bag!”)

You shouldn't like that they word it that way if you are a literal rule applier. Pitchers end up within 5 feet of the rubber without the ball in many situations. NFHS should add the caveat of when the hidden ball trick is being attempted.

[The Man in Blue]

6.2.5

ART. 5 . . . It is also a balk if a runner or runners are on base and the pitcher, while he is not touching the pitcher’s plate, makes any movement naturally associated with his pitch, or he places his feet on or astride the pitcher’s plate, or positions himself within approximately five feet of the pitcher’s plate without having the ball.

NFHS. 2020 NFHS Baseball Rules Book . NFHS. Kindle Edition. 

The rule does not apply to random situations where the pitcher may end up within 5 feet of the rubber.  He must intentionally put himself there with purpose.

I am usually a literalist.  However, rule language that states "approximately [a distance]" plays much better for me as a literalist.  I don't have to figure out the difference between 4'11 1/2" and 5'0".  I can just make the call with the spirit it was intended.

Note: "approximately" appears only three times in the NFHS book.  This is the only instance where it applies to game play.  The other two are for the pre-game plate meeting and the length of sleeves on the players' uniforms.

 

[The Man in Blue]

3 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

I can imagine having a semantics discussion with a coach over what constitutes approximately 5'. 

It's interesting, especially from my perspective as a contractor for over 35 years, how most people can't estimate short distances very well. I use a tape measure nearly every day, so I'm pretty good about estimating distances up to 20' or so. In my experience, an estimated distance of say 10' or so, will greatly vary from person to person. And it especially varies when estimating vertical vs horizontal distances. I noticed this a lot during the pandemic with the 6' social distance. 6' is not very far, most peoples wingspan is about that length. People had a hard time estimating what 6' actually was, at least in my experience. (Uh oh, I better be careful, I'm bordering on politics here. Don't want to get this thread locked up!)

 

I generally agree with the inability of people to estimate distance (and time).  However, the exception comes when people are sitting about 50 feet away at an upward angle of 30-45 degrees and looking through a chain link fence.  Then they are spot on to the millimeter.

[BigBlue4u]

On 6/26/2022 at 11:37 PM, JonnyCat said:

FED has it that the pitcher can't "position himself within approximately five feet of the pitchers plate without having the ball." 6-2-5.

I always thought that was strange. Am I supposed to carry a tape measure in my bags?

 

[BigBlue4u]

NFHS says approximately five feet because many high schools do not have grass infields with a dirt pitcher's circle.

[JonnyCat]

6 hours ago, BigBlue4u said:

NFHS says approximately five feet because many high schools do not have grass infields with a dirt pitcher's circle.

What difference would that make? The diameter of the dirt circle is supposed to be 18'. Where does 5' come into play with or without grass?

5' is such an arbitrary number. BTW, in case you didn't read the entire thread, my post was meant in jest. The part about the tape measure.

[Senor Azul]

The “within approximately 5 feet of the pitcher’s plate” language entered the FED rule book in 1971. Here’s what the rule looked like then—

6-2-5  IT IS ALSO A BALK if there is a runner or runners and the pitcher, while he is not touching the pitcher’s plate, makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch; or he gets on, astride, or positions himself within about 5 feet of the pitcher’s plate without having the ball; or he delays the game from any position as in 6-2-2a, c or d, while the ball is alive.

And here is the reason given in the front of the book (the list of rule changes for this edition)—

6-2-5:  This article is clarified. It now provides that it is a balk if there is a runner(s) and the pitcher places himself within about 5 feet of the pitcher’s plate, without having the ball. It formerly stated, “deceptively near the pitcher’s plate without having the ball.” The new wording is more definitive.

Rule 6-2-5 I believe first entered the rule book in 1961. Prior to that the language “deceptively near the pitcher’s plate” was part of rule 6-2-4e (the actual list of balks).

[The Man in Blue]

That helps with the history, but it doesn't account for the explanation of "why 5 feet?" that some are looking for.

It could be absolutely arbitrary.  It is more specific than "deceptively close" and it provides enough wiggle room that an umpire does not have to judge the difference between 5'1" and 4'11 1/2" inches.

The only thing that I can think of is it easier to gauge when we think of the dimensions of a proper pitcher's mound.  The diameter is supposed to be 18 feet, so that is a radius of 9 feet.  The rubber is 2 feet wide (one foot on each side of center), so that leaves a rim of only three feet of space the pitcher can legally occupy during the hidden ball trick.  

Since the rule is "approximate" it allows us to quickly visually gauge the pitcher's position: "Is he more or less than halfway between the edge of the mound and the rubber?"  Now, halfway is not EXACTLY more or less than 5 feet, but the APPROXIMATELY 5 feet requirement can easily be judged while leaving acceptable room for error.

 

EDIT TO ADD: And with this post, using my current screen size, the thread is now approximately 5 feet long.

[Jimurray]

15 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

That helps with the history, but it doesn't account for the explanation of "why 5 feet?" that some are looking for.

It could be absolutely arbitrary.  It is more specific than "deceptively close" and it provides enough wiggle room that an umpire does not have to judge the difference between 5'1" and 4'11 1/2" inches.

The only thing that I can think of is it easier to gauge when we think of the dimensions of a proper pitcher's mound.  The diameter is supposed to be 18 feet, so that is a radius of 9 feet.  The rubber is 2 feet wide (one foot on each side of center), so that leaves a rim of only three feet of space the pitcher can legally occupy during the hidden ball trick.  

Since the rule is "approximate" it allows us to quickly visually gauge the pitcher's position: "Is he more or less than halfway between the edge of the mound and the rubber?"  Now, halfway is not EXACTLY more or less than 5 feet, but the APPROXIMATELY 5 feet requirement can easily be judged while leaving acceptable room for error.

 

EDIT TO ADD: And with this post, using my current screen size, the thread is now approximately 5 feet long.

The rubber is not centered on the mound if layed out properly. You are not accounting for the rubber being 10.5' from the front of the mound, leaving only 2' of dirt F1 could be on toward 2B before being judged to be within ~5'.

[The Man in Blue]

7 hours ago, Jimurray said:

The rubber is not centered on the mound if layed out properly. You are not accounting for the rubber being 10.5' from the front of the mound, leaving only 2' of dirt F1 could be on toward 2B before being judged to be within ~5'.

Very true ... I was only thinking side to side, not front/back.

[ErichKeane]

So humorously, I called this last night!  Thanks to this thread/others, I got it right!  NFHS playoff game with an R1.  F3 had the ball after a throw on the B/R went behind him (and he picked it up with no one moving).  He fakes the throw to the pitcher, and seeming _I_ am the only one who noticed (at this point, I'm 1 of only 3 people who knows this is going on I think!). 

The only 'mistake' I made here was staying in "A" and not moving to "B" through this, since i was pre-occupied with making sure I kept an eye on pitcher and ball.  R1 is distracted chatting with his base coach, but standing on the base.  F3 is keeping a very close eye on him, but has the ball hidden.  Pitcher gets up on the mound, stands behind the rubber ready to 'take' the rubber, just loitering. 

I KNOW of the 5ft rule (thanks in part to this thread!), but wanted to make sure he was 'absolutely guilty' before calling it without a tag.  He gets way close, and I call "BALK, BALK, thats a BALK!", and make the signal to move the runner.  Everyone else is looking around cluelessly trying to figure out what happened, and 1 of offensive coaches said something about, "He wasn't even on the rubber, how could he balk?!".

An offensive coach called time out, and came out for the explanation, and I told him that he took position within 5ft of the rubber without the ball.  Coach said, "Wait... he didn't have the ball?". 

Me: "No, the 1st baseman did, they were running a hidden ball trick". 

Coach: "... so he didn't have the ball... and couldn't be on the mound?" 

Me: "Part of the rule is he cannot be within 5 feet of the rubber." 

Coach: "I've never heard that... ok", and walks off.

I move to 'B', and continue the game.  I see the offensive coaching group muttering, "I never heard of that before... what?", then pull out a rule book and spend the rest of the inning flipping through it.  Apparently they figured it out, because they never came up to me to talk about it afterwards.

 

After the inning, my partner told me he was glad I caught it, he had no idea and thought the pitcher had the ball.  I explained to him that I think I was the only non-conspirator that knew

[BLWizzRanger]

9 minutes ago, ErichKeane said:

So humorously, I called this last night!  Thanks to this thread/others, I got it right!  NFHS playoff game with an R1.  F3 had the ball after a throw on the B/R went behind him (and he picked it up with no one moving).  He fakes the throw to the pitcher, and seeming _I_ am the only one who noticed (at this point, I'm 1 of only 3 people who knows this is going on I think!). 

The only 'mistake' I made here was staying in "A" and not moving to "B" through this, since i was pre-occupied with making sure I kept an eye on pitcher and ball.  R1 is distracted chatting with his base coach, but standing on the base.  F3 is keeping a very close eye on him, but has the ball hidden.  Pitcher gets up on the mound, stands behind the rubber ready to 'take' the rubber, just loitering. 

I KNOW of the 5ft rule (thanks in part to this thread!), but wanted to make sure he was 'absolutely guilty' before calling it without a tag.  He gets way close, and I call "BALK, BALK, thats a BALK!", and make the signal to move the runner.  Everyone else is looking around cluelessly trying to figure out what happened, and 1 of offensive coaches said something about, "He wasn't even on the rubber, how could he balk?!".

An offensive coach called time out, and came out for the explanation, and I told him that he took position within 5ft of the rubber without the ball.  Coach said, "Wait... he didn't have the ball?". 

Me: "No, the 1st baseman did, they were running a hidden ball trick". 

Coach: "... so he didn't have the ball... and couldn't be on the mound?" 

Me: "Part of the rule is he cannot be within 5 feet of the rubber." 

Coach: "I've never heard that... ok", and walks off.

I move to 'B', and continue the game.  I see the offensive coaching group muttering, "I never heard of that before... what?", then pull out a rule book and spend the rest of the inning flipping through it.  Apparently they figured it out, because they never came up to me to talk about it afterwards.

 

After the inning, my partner told me he was glad I caught it, he had no idea and thought the pitcher had the ball.  I explained to him that I think I was the only non-conspirator that knew

Another sighting of the unicorn!  No, this actually happened, so, another sighting of sasquatch!  Good Job!

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, ErichKeane said:

An offensive coach called time out,

 

Strange that the offense would ask about this.

[ErichKeane]

12 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Strange that the offense would ask about this.

DOH!  I meant DEFENSIVE coach.  Thanks for catching that

[The Man in Blue]

On 7/13/2022 at 1:37 PM, ErichKeane said:

DOH!  I meant DEFENSIVE coach.  Thanks for catching that

Well, you got the call correct even if you didn't get the story right.  😁

 

 

(You're welcome.)

[The Man in Blue]

On 7/13/2022 at 12:08 PM, BLWizzRanger said:

Another sighting of the unicorn!  No, this actually happened, so, another sighting of sasquatch!  Good Job!

@ErichKeane and I will be appearing on Coast to Coast with George Noory next week ... 

[BLWizzRanger]

35 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

@ErichKeane and I will be appearing on Coast to Coast with George Noory next week ... 

Talking UFOs or Area 51?