Pinch hitter

[Guest Jimbo]

If a pinch hitter is at bat and a runner is caught stealing base to end an inning, who leads off next inning?

[ErichKeane]

32 minutes ago, Guest Jimbo said:

If a pinch hitter is at bat and a runner is caught stealing base to end an inning, who leads off next inning?

The substitution is effective the instant the pinch hitter was announced (or entered the batters box if an unannounced sub).  The hitter did not complete their turn at bat, so that pinch hitter would lead off the next inning, unless substituted for themselves.

[noumpere]

A couple of OBR rule quotes should answer this:

(3) The first batter in each inning after the first inning shall
be the player whose name follows that of the last player
who legally completed his time at bat in the preceding
inning.

(c) Completing Time at Bat
A batter has legally completed his time at bat when he is put out or
becomes a runner.

[maven]

11 hours ago, Guest Jimbo said:

If a pinch hitter is at bat and a runner is caught stealing base to end an inning, who leads off next inning?

Players don't lead off, a spot in the lineup is due up. So if the pinch hitter is batting 9th when this occurs, the 9 spot is due up again.

Whether that's the pinch hitter will depend on what happened in the previous half inning, when the team was on defense. The pinch hitter was a sub, presumably: did he play in the field or not?

If he did, then the lineup spot is still his, and he's up; otherwise, whoever replaced him in that spot is due up.

I've tried to phrase this to finesse differences between FED and OBR regarding substitutions. In leagues with free substitution, the sub who pinch hit can bat regardless of whether he played on defense.

[Guest Kob]

I think this is a similar situation...  I don't mean to "jump" the thread, but can someone answer?  (or I can create a different thread?)

 

A similar situation came up in our Little League a few years back.  It was All Stars, and batting a straight 9.  A (1-at-bat minimum play) substitute entered the batting lineup in the 4th inning with 2 outs. On the pitch, the baserunner got thrown out and the half-inning was over.

 

The coach wanted to re-enter the starter defensively and then sub-out the 1 at bat kid in the next inning, (the coach's argument was that the batting order is still intact) but the tournament officials said this was not allowed. What was tragic was that the starter was the pitcher, who was then unable to return to the mound and caused a cluster of changes that put everyone out of position. 

 

The ruling was, that this batter had NOT yet met minimum play, was a substitute (which could NOT then re-enter if they were taken out), so they were mandated to play defense for the inning... to which they would be lead-off in the next inning.  

 

Just to make sure... this is all correct?!?

[ErichKeane]

4 minutes ago, Guest Kob said:

I think this is a similar situation...  I don't mean to "jump" the thread, but can someone answer?  (or I can create a different thread?)

 

A similar situation came up in our Little League a few years back.  It was All Stars, and batting a straight 9.  A (1-at-bat minimum play) substitute entered the batting lineup in the 4th inning with 2 outs. On the pitch, the baserunner got thrown out and the half-inning was over.

 

The coach wanted to re-enter the starter defensively and then sub-out the 1 at bat kid in the next inning, (the coach's argument was that the batting order is still intact) but the tournament officials said this was not allowed. What was tragic was that the starter was the pitcher, who was then unable to return to the mound and caused a cluster of changes that put everyone out of position. 

 

The ruling was, that this batter had NOT yet met minimum play, was a substitute (which could NOT then re-enter if they were taken out), so they were mandated to play defense for the inning... to which they would be lead-off in the next inning.  

 

Just to make sure... this is all correct?!?

That all sounds correct to me.  The PH hasn't completed an at bat, and since they aren't a starter cannot re-enter.  Its an unfortunate consequence to the minimum-play-time rules, but the fact that the coach was trying to get a kid just the MINIMUM play time makes me have little sympathy. 

[Velho]

22 minutes ago, Guest Kob said:

Just to make sure... this is all correct?!?

Doubling down with Erich: Yes, absolutely correct. Baseball is like life. It takes funny turns sometimes.

[MadMax]

16 hours ago, ErichKeane said:

The substitution is effective the instant the pinch hitter was announced (or entered the batters box if an unannounced sub).

It’s important to clarify (I’m not correcting you) – announced by whom? 

In amateur baseball, the “whom” must be us (umpires). Far too often in amateur baseball, any number of things will occur that would otherwise affect or enact this substitution, but it isn’t the real substitution. Confusing? Good! When have you seen/heard this?: 

• The person sitting on the microphone announces the incorrect name and/or number of the batter walking towards the plate.
• The person sitting on the microphone had their pen pointed at the incorrect spot in the batting order, and announces the batter up… who’s actually standing on 2B. 
• The person on the microphone jumps the gun, and announces the batter up, but the OTHC is walking up to the Plate, and wants to use a different pinch batter (“Did he just do two substitutions? That first guy got announced!”) 
• A (potential) batter comes running up to the PU, and blurts out, “22 for 8!”. PU gets suspicious, and recalls that #8 is the pitcher… and has a DH #44 batting for him… in the 4th spot in the lineup. So PU asks the OT coaches, “What kind of substitution are we doing?” Coaches, to a man, go wide-eyed, and beckon #22 to come back to the dugout. “Sorry Ump, we told him to bat ‘for the 8 guy’. We meant the eighth spot in the lineup, not for #8!” 
• In the 9th inning, OTHC steps out of dugout, notifies PU that, “#47 will be batting” next. But the sharp PU recognizes #47 (both by face and number) as the relief pitcher who was brought in to get two outs during a tumultuous 3rd inning!! “Uh, no can do Coach, you’ve already used him.” “I did?! When?!” “I pitched the 3rd, skip.” “Oh! Uhhh… Mitchell! Get up here!” Flurry of scurried activity, and #12 emerges from the dugout, hurrying to get to the plate. PU asks with a chuckle, “You didn’t pitch the 4th inning, did ya?” 
   

You’re correct about entering the box (with the ball made or being Live). On that note, an unannounced sub is not necessarily a BOO. He might be. But we need and should seek out clarification. 

I love 😍 (hate, actually 🤨😡) when microphone folks blast out, “Pinch Running at First Base… “ immediately after I call “Time” (as either PU or BU) and allow the Catcher (NAIA, NFHS, League rules) or Pitcher-batting (NFHS, Tournament) to clear off the base for his Courtesy Runner. Ever so often, I’ll get a quizzing glance from a DTC as if to ask, “Courtesy, or is that really a Pinch Runner?” 

In amateur baseball, our (umpire’s) announcements are the binding ones. 

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, ErichKeane said:

That all sounds correct to me.  The PH hasn't completed an at bat, and since they aren't a starter cannot re-enter.  Its an unfortunate consequence to the minimum-play-time rules, but the fact that the coach was trying to get a kid just the MINIMUM play time makes me have little sympathy. 

 

55 minutes ago, Velho said:

Doubling down with Erich: Yes, absolutely correct. Baseball is like life. It takes funny turns sometimes.

The ruling was correct but not because the sub couldn’t re-enter. They can in the LL Tournament. But they can’t be removed until they complete Mandatory Play requirements. 

[ErichKeane]

My understanding is that an 'announced' sub is when the Umpire is told, so at leaest points 1, 2, and 3 would be irrelevant.

For the fourth point: I believe the answer is "a substitute cannot be announced ahead of time".  So saying "for #8" when #8 is not next up at bat, is not a valid substitute announcement I would imagine?  Though if your situation is that #44 is the guy currently DUE up... I have no idea

For the fifth point: I think an invalid attempt at subsitution doesn't count  either.

[ErichKeane]

4 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

 

The ruling was correct but not because the sub couldn’t re-enter. They can in the LL Tournament. But they can’t be removed until they complete Mandatory Play requirements. 

Ah! I didn't know that part of the LL requirements.  I thought the '1 at bat' rule was something more akin to the '6 defensive outs' rule, that is, a minimum time in the game. 

[Velho]

1 minute ago, ErichKeane said:

6 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

The ruling was correct but not because the sub couldn’t re-enter. They can in the LL Tournament. But they can’t be removed until they complete Mandatory Play requirements. 

Ah! I didn't know that part of the LL requirements.  I thought the '1 at bat' rule was something more akin to the '6 defensive outs' rule, that is, a minimum time in the game. 

The substitute has to meet their mandatory play requirement (which vary) before they can leave the game. In LL regular season that means 6 consecutive out AND 1 at-bat. In tournament, if you have more than 12(?) players mandatory play drops to 1 at-bat.

In the 'Guest Job" situation the subsitute hasn't reached mandatory play requirements so can't come out of the game.  @Jimurray is pointing out (I think that's the point) that, if the sub and starter had already met mandatory play requirements, they can be swapped out any time, any way. Every pitch if you really wanted to.

[ErichKeane]

5 minutes ago, Velho said:

The substitute has to meet their mandatory play requirement (which vary) before they can leave the game. In LL regular season that means 6 consecutive out AND 1 at-bat. In tournament, if you have more than 12(?) players mandatory play drops to 1 at-bat.

In the 'Guest Job" situation the subsitute hasn't reached mandatory play requirements so can't come out of the game.  @Jimurray is pointing out (I think that's the point) that, if the sub and starter had already met mandatory play requirements, they can be swapped out any time, any way. Every pitch if you really wanted to.

Thanks for the clarification!  I hadn't realized that you can't take them out until they have hit their minimums.  So it wouldn't be legal for a player to play all of the 1st inning (3 outs), then come out for 2nd inning, then come back in for the 3rd?  IIRC, this isn't a component to the rule in our league (obviously a different ruleset), just that they have to be in for a minimum of 6 defensive outs (or 9 for the Senior division.  Welp, TIL!

 

[Jimurray]

56 minutes ago, ErichKeane said:

My understanding is that an 'announced' sub is when the Umpire is told, so at leaest points 1, 2, and 3 would be irrelevant.

For the fourth point: I believe the answer is "a substitute cannot be announced ahead of time".  So saying "for #8" when #8 is not next up at bat, is not a valid substitute announcement I would imagine?  Though if your situation is that #44 is the guy currently DUE up... I have no idea

For the fifth point: I think an invalid attempt at subsitution doesn't count  either.

LL does not allow "projected"subs but OBR has no prohibition of projected subs. If a manager wanted to give the ump the next 3 batters as subs it would be legal if he didn't mind getting tied down as as soon as he reports the subs they are in the game.

[BDad]

On 5/16/2022 at 4:02 PM, ErichKeane said:

Thanks for the clarification!  I hadn't realized that you can't take them out until they have hit their minimums.  So it wouldn't be legal for a player to play all of the 1st inning (3 outs), then come out for 2nd inning, then come back in for the 3rd?  IIRC, this isn't a component to the rule in our league (obviously a different ruleset), just that they have to be in for a minimum of 6 defensive outs (or 9 for the Senior division.  Welp, TIL!

 

Notice that there's a distinction in LL between 'starter' and 'sub'. The starter can come out before meeting mandatory play requirements (depends on how many on the roster as noted above) as long as they meet those mandatory play requirements during the game. A sub must meet mandatory play requirements before the starter can re-enter for them (i.e., cannot be removed until they meet mandatory play requirements). Regulation IV(i), Rule 3.03, and Tournament Rule 9.