Infield Fly...After the Fact

[johnnyg08]

What rule set...allows the Infield Fly to be called after the fact? (I know...not ideal...but that's not my question). I've know there are NFHS case plays stating that an undeclared IFF is still an IFF (by situation)...does that mean the same as declaring after the fact? 

I feel like I've seen an interpretation or case play(s) in one of the rule sets, but I can't recall where or which one.

Or...perhaps I'm dreaming? 

 

 

[Velho]

From 2021 MiLB Umpire Manual:

10: DEFINITION OF TERMS

10.6 Infield Fly, paragraph 6: If the umpires did not declare an Infield Fly because they failed to recognize the
requirements of the number of outs and/or bases occupied, the umpires should consult
and correct the situation. No outs or advancements that occurred will be allowed, the
batter-runner called out, and the other runners return to their original bases.

Bonus: paragraph 7: Clubs are obligated to know the requirements for an infield fly even though the
umpires failed to recognize the infield fly requirements. Umpire's judgment on ordinary
effort is not a correctable error.  

LL 2021 RIM has similar in Rule 2 "However, if the umpires forget to call the Infield Fly, the situation must be corrected. The defense must not be allowed to get a double play when the Infield Fly should have been called. Make the belated call and get the situation corrected."

I don't have manuals for NCAA or FED and don't see call outs in the NCAA ruleset (I don't have Fed).

Hope that helps.

[johnnyg08]

6 minutes ago, Velho said:

From 2021 MiLB Umpire Manual:

10: DEFINITION OF TERMS

10.6 Infield Fly, paragraph 6: If the umpires did not declare an Infield Fly because they failed to recognize the
requirements of the number of outs and/or bases occupied, the umpires should consult
and correct the situation. No outs or advancements that occurred will be allowed, the
batter-runner called out, and the other runners return to their original bases.

Bonus: paragraph 7: Clubs are obligated to know the requirements for an infield fly even though the
umpires failed to recognize the infield fly requirements. Umpire's judgment on ordinary
effort is not a correctable error.  

LL 2021 RIM has similar in Rule 2 "However, if the umpires forget to call the Infield Fly, the situation must be corrected. The defense must not be allowed to get a double play when the Infield Fly should have been called. Make the belated call and get the situation corrected."

I don't have manuals for NCAA or FED and don't see call outs in the NCAA ruleset (I don't have Fed).

Hope that helps.

There it is! Thank you! 

[Thunderheads]

interesting .......I wonder if this is across all codes?

[johnnyg08]

Here are two relevant NFHS case plays:

 

[noumpere]

24 minutes ago, Velho said:

From 2021 MiLB Umpire Manual:

10: DEFINITION OF TERMS

10.6 Infield Fly, paragraph 6: If the umpires did not declare an Infield Fly because they failed to recognize the
requirements of the number of outs and/or bases occupied, the umpires should consult
and correct the situation. No outs or advancements that occurred will be allowed, the
batter-runner called out, and the other runners return to their original bases.

 

Thanks -- that is, I think, different from what it used to be.

 

I recall (but I might be wrong) that is used to be:  If the defense got zero or one outs anyway, the play stands.  If the defense got two or three outs, then enforce the infield fly (batter out, runners return).  The theory is that the rule is to protect the offense, so as long as the offense was no worse off (the former case), then let the play go; if the offense was worse off (the latter case), then enforce the rule.

[maven]

I don't understand the question. IFF is always declared after the fact. Why would anyone declare it before it happened?

[johnnyg08]

7 minutes ago, maven said:

I don't understand the question. IFF is always declared after the fact. Why would anyone declare it before it happened?

It's a bit of a pedantic response. Wouldn't you say? (At the risk of hijacking my own thread)

 

[maven]

1 hour ago, johnnyg08 said:

It's a bit of a pedantic response. Wouldn't you say? (At the risk of hijacking my own thread)

As a semi-professional pedant, no, I wouldn't say that. Maybe overly literal. 

Then again, maybe I hold you to a higher standard of communicating your meaning than the average internet goon.

[Senor Azul]

Mr. Velho, according to the 2016 BRD (section 277, p. 178) the NCAA has no provision for the situation where the umpires fail to declare an infield fly—so that would account for you not finding anything about it in the rules book. The BRD does show an official interpretation from Jim Paronto stating that the NCAA should handle it the same as OBR.

And that is what George Demetriou writes in his 2019-2020 College Study Guide (p. 104)—

“If the umpires fail to declare an infield fly, when the play is over, the umpires must get the play right. Under no circumstances should an undeserved double play be allowed to stand. In getting the play right, the following principles dictate:  The batter is always out. Other runners advance at their own risk and may keep any base they make.”

[Rich Ives]

2 hours ago, maven said:

I don't understand the question. IFF is always declared after the fact. Why would anyone declare it before it happened?

Duh. After the play is over.

[Thunderheads]

As a semi-professional pedant, no, I wouldn't say that. Maybe overly literal. 
Then again, maybe I hold you to a higher standard of communicating your meaning than the average internet goon.

You're WAY TOO smart NOT to understand this question.... way too smart

Sent from my SM-A426U using Tapatalk

[BLarson]

How long after the fact can we correct an improper ruling?
Years ago our team (while I was coaching) had an IFF (called correctly). OBR rules.
R1 & R2. 1 out.
Batter pops the ball up to the 2nd baseman and umpire called IFF.
Batter out for 2nd out.
Our defense did not catch the ball...R2 attempts to take 3B.
Ball is thrown to F5 beating the runner, but F5 does not tag the runner.
Umpire calls R2 out for the 3rd out.
Both teams leave the field (with me knowing that's not an out)
Pitcher throws his warmups and our batter takes the box when something must have clicked (or the opposing coach was asking them about it) and the umpires made us go back on defense with R3 and R1 and 2 outs.

Would there be a difference if a legal pitch have been made after the missed call?

 

[Senor Azul]

From the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 8.3, p. 146):

In a situation—unrelated to a missed ball-strike count—where teams mistakenly change sides before three outs are made, the Official Scorer according to Official Baseball Rule 9.01(b)(2) shall immediately inform the umpire-in-chief of the mistake. However, if the official scorer fails to notify the umpire-in-chief or fails to have him notified before the first pitch starting the next half-inning, the mistake can no longer be corrected.

[ArchAngel72]

On 4/12/2022 at 12:32 PM, johnnyg08 said:

Here are two relevant NFHS case plays:

 

 

 

Question  By what Velho posted about the delayed calling of the IFF  would result in all runners returning to the bases and no other recorded outs being allowed, Would not that 7.4.1 Not be allowed to tag the runner for the additional out? Thus the inning should NOT be over?

 

Also edit 

I am noting is not NFHS fed?

MiLB is OBR ?

ugh I am getting scrambled brain right now... help..

 

 

Edit: credited wrong poster .. 🤫

 

[noumpere]

13 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

 

 

Question  By what Velho posted about the delayed calling of the IFF  would result in all runners returning to the bases and no other recorded outs being allowed, Would not that 7.4.1 Not be allowed to tag the runner for the additional out? Thus the inning should NOT be over?

 

Also edit 

I am noting is not NFHS fed?

MiLB is OBR ?

ugh I am getting scrambled brain right now... help..

 

 

Edit: credited wrong poster .. 🤫

 

Yes, NFHS is FED; MiLB is OBR.

The rulings, based on what is posted in this thread are different. Under OBR, the batter is ou and all other runners return.  Under FED, the batter is out (and, any forces re removed), but the rest of the play stands.

[Replacematt]

On 4/12/2022 at 2:13 PM, maven said:

As a semi-professional pedant, no, I wouldn't say that. Maybe overly literal. 

Then again, maybe I hold you to a higher standard of communicating your meaning than the average internet goon.

I'm going to say it's pedantic, not with the intent of piling on, but to point out that if I find it pedantic, well...