What is a "hidden ball play"

[Jimurray]

Ground ball results in batter safe at 1B with F3 in possession of the ball. R1 now standing on 1B as F3 feints throw to pitcher on the mound. Everyone in stadium knows F3 has the ball. F3 then throws to pitcher. Or, F3 feints throw to pitcher on the mound and then puts the ball in his glove for about 5 seconds before deciding that R1 is not going to leave base and throws back to pitcher. Everyone in the stadium knows where the ball is. No problem in OBR where we would not have an issue unless they were trying the "trick" and the pitcher actually took or went astride the rubber. But in NFHS we might have a pitcher within 5 feet of the rubber and in NCAA we probably have a pitcher on the mound. In the case where F3 puts the ball into his glove do we have a hidden ball trick?

[SH0102]

I’ll offer my opinion based on the “spirit of the rule”

technically when an F1 throws over, they are now in dirt circle without the ball, but clearly did not do anything wrong.

For me, if F3 simply does a quick fake throw to see if R1 is silly enough to lead off or come off the bag to dust himself, I’ve got an out.

If he “hides” the ball, in his glove, behind his back, whatever, I’ve got an illegal hidden ball trick (assuming P is in circle).

If P throws over, steps off circle to “tie his shoe”, F3 can do what he wants.

[Velho]

What codes is the

15 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

If he “hides” the ball, in his glove, behind his back, whatever, I’ve got an illegal hidden ball trick (assuming P is in circle).

Not doubting but curious: in what rulesets is that illegal?

[wolfe_man]

18 minutes ago, Velho said:

What codes is the

Not doubting but curious: in what rulesets is that illegal?

NFHS - if the F1 is within 5 feet of the rubber (rough outline of dirt circle) then it's a hidden ball play and therefore illegal.  As @SH0102 states, as long as F1 is out of the circle, then F3 can play the game as long as he wants.  

The idea behind the rule is one of fair play.  If F1 fakes the act of preparing to pitch, then the runner would assume he is safe to start leading off and become an easy out for F3.   Since most runners are taught to not lead off until F1 is on/in the vicinity of the rubber, then they should theoretically be safe from a 'hidden ball play' attempt.

[SH0102]

12 minutes ago, wolfe_man said:

NFHS - if the F1 is within 5 feet of the rubber (rough outline of dirt circle) then it's a hidden ball play and therefore illegal.  As @SH0102 states, as long as F1 is out of the circle, then F3 can play the game as long as he wants.  

The idea behind the rule is one of fair play.  If F1 fakes the act of preparing to pitch, then the runner would assume he is safe to start leading off and become an easy out for F3.   Since most runners are taught to not lead off until F1 is on/in the vicinity of the rubber, then they should theoretically be safe from a 'hidden ball play' attempt.

Same with college

[MadMax]

9 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Everyone in stadium knows F3 has the ball.

 

9 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Everyone in the stadium knows where the ball is.

And, in the amateur environment (NFHS, NAIA, NCAA, MSBL), if everyone knows it, you typically hear everyone on the OT’s bench yelling, “First baseman’s got it!” or “Ball in ball in ball in ball in ball in!!” or a 1BC going, “Ball’s still here! Ball’s still here…” 

With that cacophony of information, if that R1 disconnects from the base, his loss; where the pitcher’s standing at that moment is inconsequential. You just said everyone knows where the ball is.

I’ve got a whole cup o’ nothin’. 

[noumpere]

8 hours ago, wolfe_man said:

NFHS - if the F1 is within 5 feet of the rubber (rough outline of dirt circle)

 

The mound is 9' in radius, not 5'

 

To the OP -- I think it also depends on what F1 is doing -- if he is acting like he caught and has the ball, then it's now the hidden ball trick.

[Kevin_K]

Another example is when the defensive team calls a timeout and gathers the infielders and  maybe with their coach near the pitcher's mound. When the time out breaks up, all the fielders go back to their typical positions and sometimes the pitcher stands astride or even on the pitching rubber. They'll wait for the predetermined runner to step off the base in taking a lead and one of the infielders will usually run up from behind him tag him and say, "he's out he's out he's out".

This is the scenario that I have usually come across.

The uninformed believe that because the runner was off the bag and they were tagged with a ball it's going to be an out. The problem with the uninformed is that they are uninformed. When the defensive team gathered at the pitcher's mound the umpire had called timeout. When the ball is dead, there's no way you can get an out in this situation.

In order for the defensive team to get an out the ball has to be put in play and there are certain requirements that need to be met in order to have the ball put back and play. The batter has to be in the batter's box, the catcher has to be ready to receive a pitch and the pitcher must be on the mound with the ball. If all of those circumstances have not been met the ball cannot be put back in play.

Unfortunately, there are some of our brethren who do not necessarily pay attention to where the ball is when that meeting breaks up and due to the appearance of the defensive team will improperly put the ball back in play. Once the umpire puts the ball back and play the defensive team makes its move and thinks it's grabbed an out.

Even though the umpire may have mistakenly put the ball back in play, the defensive team cannot get an out because all of the circumstances necessary to put the ball back in play had not been met.

Then the fun begins.

[wolfe_man]

33 minutes ago, Kevin_K said:

Another example is when the defensive team calls a timeout and gathers the infielders and  maybe with their coach near the pitcher's mound. When the time out breaks up, all the fielders go back to their typical positions and sometimes the pitcher stands astride or even on the pitching rubber. They'll wait for the predetermined runner to step off the base in taking a lead and one of the infielders will usually run up from behind him tag him and say, "he's out he's out he's out".

This is the scenario that I have usually come across.

The uninformed believe that because the runner was off the bag and they were tagged with a ball it's going to be an out. The problem with the uninformed is that they are uninformed. When the defensive team gathered at the pitcher's mound the umpire had called timeout. When the ball is dead, there's no way you can get an out in this situation.

In order for the defensive team to get an out the ball has to be put in play and there are certain requirements that need to be met in order to have the ball put back and play. The batter has to be in the batter's box, the catcher has to be ready to receive a pitch and the pitcher must be on the mound with the ball. If all of those circumstances have not been met the ball cannot be put back in play.

Unfortunately, there are some of our brethren who do not necessarily pay attention to where the ball is when that meeting breaks up and due to the appearance of the defensive team will improperly put the ball back in play. Once the umpire puts the ball back and play the defensive team makes its move and thinks it's grabbed an out.

Even though the umpire may have mistakenly put the ball back in play, the defensive team cannot get an out because all of the circumstances necessary to put the ball back in play had not been met.

Then the fun begins.

This makes me think of what happens it seems like every year in a JV or Freshmen game.  Foul ball or time is called.  They reset on rubber and immediately throw over to try and get the runner picked off without ever waiting for the ball to be put back in play.  They're befuddled until you explain time was called, so nothing happened. 

This is why it's so critical to put the ball back in play after every foul ball and time-out has been called.  You make a great point that the ball (NFHS) cannot be put back in play until the batter is in the box and F1 is on the pitcher's plate and ready, then a point and a "Play".

[Velho]

1 hour ago, Kevin_K said:

Another example is when the defensive team calls a timeout and gathers the infielders and  maybe with their coach near the pitcher's mound. When the time out breaks up, all the fielders go back to their typical positions and sometimes the pitcher stands astride or even on the pitching rubber. They'll wait for the predetermined runner to step off the base in taking a lead and one of the infielders will usually run up from behind him tag him and say, "he's out he's out he's out".

Agreed and that is explicitly a balk. End of story.

OBR 6.02 Pitcher Illegal Action

(a) Balks

If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when:

(9) The pitcher, without having the ball, stands on or astride the pitcher’s plate or while off the plate, he feints a pitch;

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, Velho said:

Agreed and that is explicitly a balk. End of story.

OBR 6.02 Pitcher Illegal Action

(a) Balks

If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when:

(9) The pitcher, without having the ball, stands on or astride the pitcher’s plate or while off the plate, he feints a pitch;

Can't be a balk if the ball isn't properly made live.

[Velho]

I'd argue it's a distinction without a difference. Anytime after the PU goes "play", if the pitcher is "astride the pitcher's plate" without the ball that's "a balk by rule coach".

That said, I've seen the prolonged discussions here and am not interested in rehashing it. I was offering an explicit rule citation for OBR reference if folks found it useful, that's all.

 

[Jimurray]

39 minutes ago, Velho said:

I'd argue it's a distinction without a difference. Anytime after the PU goes "play", if the pitcher is "astride the pitcher's plate" without the ball that's "a balk by rule coach".

That said, I've seen the prolonged discussions here and am not interested in rehashing it. I was offering an explicit rule citation for OBR reference if folks found it useful, that's all.

 

I don't think you understand what "astride" means. That is straddling the rubber with the free foot in front and the pivot foot behind without being on it. Folks would not find your citation useful. The ball cannot be made live by pointing and/or saying play unless the pitcher has the ball and is on the rubber. 

[Rich Ives]

1 hour ago, Velho said:

I'd argue it's a distinction without a difference. Anytime after the PU goes "play", if the pitcher is "astride the pitcher's plate" without the ball that's "a balk by rule coach".

 

 

The ball cannot be made live if the pitcher doesn't have it. Nothing to argue about. 

[BLWizzRanger]

I actually had this call the first game this year.  (I only chime up since I think I am a thread killer and this topic has been beaten to death in the past two months or so.)

Runner slides into 2nd, F6 acts like he throws the ball to F1. F1's heels are on the dirt of the mound, toes are not.  No timeout called.  F1 looks at F6 for 15 secs and then turns toward the rubber and takes a step.  Balk is called.

May partner was thinking as soon as F1's feet touched the mound's dirt, the balk should be called. (First game, he missed it until I called it). Even if the F1 walked backward towards the rubber, I am not going to call it while his attention is toward the fielder with the ball. I would call it the same as if the pitcher was walking down, off of the mound, toward the fielder with the ball. That is my line I guess.

But, ball is not in play, there is no violation. Period.  If I am mistaken in putting the ball in play, say the pitcher is astride the rubber and I put the ball back into play, I will default back that the ball was not officially put in play due to my mistake.  I will pick that end of the stick up.

 

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, BLWizzRanger said:

I actually had this call the first game this year.  (I only chime up since I think I am a thread killer and this topic has been beaten to death in the past two months or so.)

Runner slides into 2nd, F6 acts like he throws the ball to F1. F1's heels are on the dirt of the mound, toes are not.  No timeout called.  F1 looks at F6 for 15 secs and then turns toward the rubber and takes a step.  Balk is called.

May partner was thinking as soon as F1's feet touched the mound's dirt, the balk should be called. (First game, he missed it until I called it). Even if the F1 walked backward towards the rubber, I am not going to call it while his attention is toward the fielder with the ball. I would call it the same as if the pitcher was walking down, off of the mound, toward the fielder with the ball. That is my line I guess.

But, ball is not in play, there is no violation. Period.  If I am mistaken in putting the ball in play, say the pitcher is astride the rubber and I put the ball back into play, I will default back that the ball was not officially put in play due to my mistake.  I will pick that end of the stick up.

 

Was this an NCAA game?  That’s the only code that uses the mound. 

[BLWizzRanger]

16 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Was this an NCAA game?  That’s the only code that uses the mound. 

No.  FED.  BTW, I estimated the step to be within the 5 feet from the rubber.

[Jimurray]

8 minutes ago, BLWizzRanger said:

No.  FED.  BTW, I estimated the step to be within the 5 feet from the rubber.

Yes a step would probably put him within 5 feet in that direction.