Advantageous 4th out

[Steven Tyler]

Case play from FED girls.  R1 and R3. 1 out.  Batter hits fly ball to LF which is caught.  Both runners leave early.  Defense appeals @ 1B.  R1 out.  Defense appeals @ 3B.  runner out and no run scored. 

Isn't this a time play and R3 scores?

Could anyone post some advantageous 4th out situations also?

[ArchAngel72]

Nothing of any games I could find where it was applied but 2 where it was actually missed..

 

Real examples

A missed fourth out allows a run to score (1989)

On July 1, 1989, in the bottom of the eighth inning in a game between the New York Yankees and the Milwaukee Brewers at old Yankee Stadium, the Yankees scored a run because the Brewers failed to record a fourth out.

 

With one out and the Yankees up 4-1, Mike Pagliarulo on third base, and Bob Geren on first base, Yankees shortstop Wayne Tolleson attempted a suicide squeeze that became a pop-up caught by Brewers pitcher Jay Aldrich. Both Pagliarulo and Geren broke on contact without tagging up from their respective bases, and Aldrich, noticing this, threw to first baseman Greg Brock to double off Geren from first base, but not until after Pagliarulo crossed home plate. Upon doubling off Geren, the Brewers left the field, thinking the inning was over and the run did not count.

Had Aldrich thrown more quickly to first base to double off Geren - prior to Pagliarulo crossing the plate - no run would have scored. The catching of the pop-up before it had touched the ground eliminated the force play, turning the play into a "time play", requiring the home plate umpire (for this game, Larry Barnett) to judge the position of Pagliarulo at the time Aldrich had doubled off Geren. Alternatively, had Aldrich let the ball drop (without catching the ball and letting it fall out of his glove to the ground) and then thrown to second baseman Jim Gantner or shortstop Gary Sheffield to begin a 1-4-3 or 1-6-3 double play (Aldrich-Gantner or Sheffield-Brock), the run would not have counted since a run cannot score when the final out of a half-inning is a force out or a ground out (presuming Geren was forced at second and Tolleson was out at first). After all of the Brewers players had left fair territory (and therefore losing the chance to launch an appeal play to appeal Pagliarulo's failure to tag from third base), Barnett awarded the run scored by Pagliarulo to the Yankees as per Rule 7.10(a) (now Rule 5.09(c)), giving the Yankees a 5-1 lead,^[2] which would be the final score.

If, before leaving the field, the Brewers had launched an appeal play at third base to garner a fourth out, Pagliarulo's failure to tag from third base would have become the actual third out of the inning and the run would not have scored, and this out would have taken precedence because it would have erased the run. As Barnett explained after the game: It's a 'fourth-out' situation. Milwaukee had to throw the ball to third base for what would be the fourth out. Then they can choose to make that one the final out and prevent the run from scoring. But Milwaukee didn’t do that." In the aftermath of a July 2018 fourth out incident, this game would be referenced again.^[3]

[noumpere]

59 minutes ago, Steven Tyler said:

Case play from FED girls.  R1 and R3. 1 out.  Batter hits fly ball to LF which is caught.  Both runners leave early.  Defense appeals @ 1B.  R1 out.  Defense appeals @ 3B.  runner out and no run scored. 

Isn't this a time play and R3 scores?

Could anyone post some advantageous 4th out situations also?

Baseball (you said Fed Girls, but not baseball or softball) case play 9.1.1A (2017 reference) clearly indicates that the defense can choose the out that's to its advantage.  That's R3. 

 

It's a time play if the only appeal is R1.

[Replacematt]

3 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Baseball (you said Fed Girls, but not baseball or softball) case play 9.1.1A (2017 reference) clearly indicates that the defense can choose the out that's to its advantage.  That's R3. 

 

It's a time play if the only appeal is R1.

While it hasn't been said explicitly, R3 being appealed successfully nullifies their own run. 

In addition, if R3 were to be appealed before R1, we would not rule on R1--there is no advantageous out.

[beerguy55]

2 hours ago, Steven Tyler said:

Case play from FED girls.  R1 and R3. 1 out.  Batter hits fly ball to LF which is caught.  Both runners leave early.  Defense appeals @ 1B.  R1 out.  Defense appeals @ 3B.  runner out and no run scored. 

Isn't this a time play and R3 scores?

Could anyone post some advantageous 4th out situations also?

Step it back - forget about R1 for a minute...Are you suggesting that R3 should called out AND score the run??

Ask yourself - would appealing R3 ever be a time play, as far as it concerns R3 scoring?  You're appealing the runner who scored...if he is ruled out you can't also rule he scored simply because the appeal happened after he crossed the plate - R3 would NEVER tag up for a fly ball otherwise.   Hell, I'd probably have R2 running on any fly ball because he'd likely score before the appeal was completed too.

A runner who is out can never score.  (at least not til his next at bat)

 

[Replacematt]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

A runner who is out can never score.  

 

[Steven Tyler]

4 hours ago, noumpere said:

Baseball (you said Fed Girls, but not baseball or softball) case play 9.1.1A (2017 reference) clearly indicates that the defense can choose the out that's to its advantage.  That's R3. 

 

It's a time play if the only appeal is R1.

All I know is they have screwy.  They award a runner 1st base on obstruction after they gained 1st.

I read the rule and case plays, and I didn't really see anything to support that in the wording.  I tried to get books from Indy, but they act as if they never heard of that.

[Steven Tyler]

3 minutes ago, Steven Tyler said:

All I know is they have screwy rules. They award a runner 1st base on obstruction after they gained 1st because it says minus the obstruction. 

I read the rule and case plays, and I didn't really see anything to support that in the wording.  I tried to get books from Indy, but they act as if they never heard of that.

I was thinking more along the lines that R1 wasn't forced, so was a time play.  I would have taken the safe play and appealed R3 first 

[SH0102]

Interesting this was asked today , and I know it’s about NFHS so maybe different, but this was just asked in NCAA and Bruns said the appeal of following runner ends the inning, it’s on the defense to know to appeal R3 first.

[maven]

2 hours ago, Matt said:

 

You're getting old, Matt.

[Replacematt]

4 hours ago, SH0102 said:

Interesting this was asked today , and I know it’s about NFHS so maybe different, but this was just asked in NCAA and Bruns said the appeal of following runner ends the inning, it’s on the defense to know to appeal R3 first.

That's not what that said...he wasn't clear in his wording, but the intent is that the umpire needs to signal that the run scores so that the defense knows the appeal at 3B is necessary.

The advantageous fourth out is covered in 8-6b(9) Note. The point of 8-6b(9) is to show that appealing a following runner removes a force on a preceding runner for the purposes of appeal.

[Senor Azul]

Mr. Matt, isn’t rule 8-6b(9) Note a college baseball rule? And didn’t the OP, though not making himself entirely clear, ask about a FED girls case play? However, the OP never really stated that it was softball he was asking about. Are college baseball and high school softball ruled the same on this question?