Coaches Allowed to Argue Judgement Call?

[Guest Wolfgang]

FED:  Have been away for a few years, hope to start working games this spring.  Although I see no new specific language preventing coaches from

coming out to argue judgement calls I thought I read somewhere that due to excessive coach craziness they are not allowed to come out on calls

they don't like.  Am probably way off base on this but would like some input if this old tradition is no longer allowed.  Thanks.

[maven]

Strictly speaking, the only coach entitled to leave his position to request an explanation during a dead ball is the head coach. I suspect that what you heard was a reference to ejecting assistant coaches for leaving their position to argue a call, which is a provision FED added a number of years ago.

Every call has 2 components: a rule and a judgment. For example, a rule prohibits a runner from interfering with a fielder fielding a batted ball; when I call INT, I'm judging that a runner violated the rule.

A coach is entitled to ask me what I saw and what rule I was applying. He's not entitled to argue the judgment element of the call. He IS entitled to his own judgment, which might well be different from mine. But I'm the umpire, and someone has to be the authority. 

If my understanding of the rule is incorrect, that's a legitimate protest situation. If my judgment is wrong, that's the way it goes (and maybe I'm not a very good umpire). But there's still no arguing a judgment call.

[Senor Azul]

The rule referred to by Mr. maven is current rule 3-3-1f and it was added to the rule book in 2010—here’s the rationale given at that time.

2010 Baseball Rule Revisions

Another major rule addition applies to assistant coaches and their behavior during the game. Rule 3-3-1g6 (currently 3-3-1f6) prohibits any member of the coaching staff who is not the head coach from leaving "the vicinity of the dugout or coaching box to dispute a judgment call by an umpire." The penalty for this infraction is that both the head coach and the offending coach will be restricted to the dugout for the remainder of the game. If severe enough, the umpire also has the authority to eject the offending coach and/or the head coach.

The intention of this change is to cut down on the disruptive and counterproductive behavior of assistant coaches. It also reinforces to head coaches that they are responsible for their staff and players.

"The committee found that assistant coaches were taking license with their roles and becoming disruptive," Hopkins said. "By doing that, they're sending the wrong message to their players. It's one thing to ask the official for a clarification, but it's another to challenge and charge an umpire. We cannot and will not allow that."

[Donny7]

What maven said, and;

Good, quality coaches will occasionally come out just to show their players (and fans) that he's got their back... and may even say something like, "I saw the same thing you did. Great call, just give me minute and I will go back to the dugout"

[beerguy55]

As stated, the coach can ask some specific questions to clarify...and there are limits...especially around balls and strikes where the line between "asking" and "arguing" is VERY thin.

The only real exception to  questioning judgment would be the ability to respectfully ASK the umpire if perhaps their partner had a better angle...but it would have to be pretty egregious (eg. ball on ground, not in glove...foot off bag...daylight between glove and runner)...it is not an invitation to shop for calls - and, of course, the umpire  may simply say they saw what they needed to see  and not discuss with the partner....or can choose to discuss with partner with no obligation to change their mind....and in either case, too bad so sad, the ump has declared their judgment. 

For me, as a coach, anything sort of close (ie. less than a full step) you weren't going to hear from me.   As such, I developed a reputation that if I was coming out to ask something the ump knew that, at least, it wasn't frivolous.   Nothing I hated more was a coach who argued not only every bang/bang call, but even clearly correct calls.  Except perhaps hating more the umpire that entertained those antics (or fell for them).

Because, if you really want to lose control of a game, go to your partner and then change your original judgment to what turns out to be the wrong call, because you lack the confidence to own your call, or not be bullied by the coach (or your partner).

[SH0102]

3 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

As stated, the coach can ask some specific questions to clarify...and there are limits...especially around balls and strikes where the line between "asking" and "arguing" is VERY thin.

The only real exception to  questioning judgment would be the ability to respectfully ASK the umpire if perhaps their partner had a better angle...but it would have to be pretty egregious (eg. ball on ground, not in glove...foot off bag...daylight between glove and runner)...it is not an invitation to shop for calls - and, of course, the umpire  may simply say they saw what they needed to see  and not discuss with the partner....or can choose to discuss with partner with no obligation to change their mind....and in either case, too bad so sad, the ump has declared their judgment. 

For me, as a coach, anything sort of close (ie. less than a full step) you weren't going to hear from me.   As such, I developed a reputation that if I was coming out to ask something the ump knew that, at least, it wasn't frivolous.   Nothing I hated more was a coach who argued not only every bang/bang call, but even clearly correct calls.  Except perhaps hating more the umpire that entertained those antics (or fell for them).

Because, if you really want to lose control of a game, go to your partner and then change your original judgment to what turns out to be the wrong call, because you lack the confidence to own your call, or not be bullied by the coach (or your partner).

Good stuff, only thing I would add is that you should NOT go to partners for safe/out, even just to appease the coach when you know you won’t change the call, unless there is a question about pulled foot, dropped ball, etc.

Strictly safe/out on timing not only should not be discussed via conference it is actually forbidden.

Had a D3 college game last year, bang bang play at first (I was plate).  Coach from 3B dugout went to argue, asked him to get help, partner said no, it was his call.  Coach was furious and asked me on way by “why won’t he ask you for help? Just wants to be a “jerk” (word changed)?

explained to him next game when I was U3 (three man) that unless there is question about whether he held the bag or caught the ball, we can not go for help, trained to own our calls.  He didn’t like that answer even 1-2 hours later but it’s the truth.

otherwise there would be no reason not to appeal every close play in the hopes you get a couple changed

[mac266]

On 2/15/2022 at 7:20 PM, maven said:

Strictly speaking, the only coach entitled to leave his position to request an explanation during a dead ball is the head coach. I suspect that what you heard was a reference to ejecting assistant coaches for leaving their position to argue a call, which is a provision FED added a number of years ago.

Every call has 2 components: a rule and a judgment. For example, a rule prohibits a runner from interfering with a fielder fielding a batted ball; when I call INT, I'm judging that a runner violated the rule.

A coach is entitled to ask me what I saw and what rule I was applying. He's not entitled to argue the judgment element of the call. He IS entitled to his own judgment, which might well be different from mine. But I'm the umpire, and someone has to be the authority. 

If my understanding of the rule is incorrect, that's a legitimate protest situation. If my judgment is wrong, that's the way it goes (and maybe I'm not a very good umpire). But there's still no arguing a judgment call.

 

OP, a good rule of thumb is to always listen to this guy.  I've learned more from him (never having met him) than I learned from my own trainers!  I'm not joking, either.

By the way, Maven, do you remember only 3 years ago I came on here because I was a brand new youth level umpire who received a whopping 2 hours of training before being fully blessed off as an umpire?  Last year I did high school and moved up to Varsity in my first year.  This year I'm doing high school again and was hired for the summer season to umpire an independent minor league! 

[MadMax]

On 2/15/2022 at 7:20 PM, maven said:

Every call has 2 components: a rule and a judgment.

In my experiences, and I’m sure others here have encountered this as well, the more an umpire espouses “In my judgement”, the less they know the associated rule, or worse, they are making s#!t up. They have either falsely believed, or heard secondhand, that an umpire’s “judgement” cannot be questioned. As such, they erroneously process a play, misapply or neglect to apply a rule, and then when confronted with it, try to extricate themselves not by using rule book terminology or support, but by over-stressing “In my judgement… “

Moral of the story – know the rules, and within the framework of those rules, operate under common sense and fair play. Judgement is knowing why, how, and to what extent to apply those rules. 

[maven]

Max: what I had in mind is easier. How often have we seen umpires who eject because they got into an argument over whether a runner was safe, under the tag, etc.? 

We need to disengage from these battles over judgment: coach is entitled to his judgment and to express it (once, and narrowly). So often umpires feel that they have to persuade coaches that we're right. We don't. 

None of that undercuts the need to know the rules, without which umpires can't (or shouldn't) advance. 

[MadMax]

9 minutes ago, maven said:

So often umpires feel that they have to persuade coaches that we're right. We don't. 

You're absolutely correct on this; and, to my point, they try to persuade because of their tenuous grasp of the Rules, if they have one at all. 

[johnnyg08]

Oh, and when the coach says "you'll have to show me that in the book" never take the bait. They don't really care.