odd ball of a question

[ArchAngel72]

Ok no outs 1st and 2nd

Batter hits a low line drive thats a trouble ball for the left fielder but it IS a catch.  R1 sees it was a catch and after his couple of steps to check goes back to 1st.

R2 thinks it skipped into the mitt and hes jetting for 3rd.  Base coach is giving him the stop and go back signal. 

F7 seeing he has a chance to pick off R2 air mails his throw into short right field  foul territory ( still in play ) 

Upon seeing the over throw R1 takes off for 2nd base

F3 makes an incredible fetch and guns the ball to 2nd.  F4 catches the ball and tags R1 but R1 slides into  2nd a second before f4 has the ball.

R2 seeing this turns and starts to run back towards 3rd  again without tagging up. ( he never got within 4 yards of 2nd base.. 

Now my question is 

 

Is R1 out because the base is not legally his to occupy? while R2 is still safe because they have not tagged him NOR 2nd base.

 

[flyingron]

I'm missing something, after F4 catches the ball he does nothing with it?   He's not neither an appeal nor a play on either runner?

 

[ArchAngel72]

53 minutes ago, flyingron said:

I'm missing something, after F4 catches the ball he does nothing with it?   He's not neither an appeal nor a play on either runner?

 

Sorry corrected the question  he tags R1

 

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Ok no outs 1st and 2nd

Batter hits a low line drive thats a trouble ball for the left fielder but it IS a catch.  R1 sees it was a catch and after his couple of steps to check goes back to 1st.

R2 thinks it skipped into the mitt and hes jetting for 3rd.  Base coach is giving him the stop and go back signal. 

F7 seeing he has a chance to pick off R2 air mails his throw into short right field  foul territory ( still in play ) 

Upon seeing the over throw R1 takes off for 2nd base

F3 makes an incredible fetch and guns the ball to 2nd.  F4 catches the ball and tags R1 but R1 slides into  2nd a second before f4 has the ball.

R2 seeing this turns and starts to run back towards 3rd  again without tagging up. ( he never got within 4 yards of 2nd base.. 

Now my question is 

 

Is R1 out because the base is not legally his to occupy? while R2 is still safe because they have not tagged him NOR 2nd base.

 

It's his to occupy, until R2 comes back and touches it, and then only while R2 is touching it is R1 not safe.

R2 has left the base...he's not "forced" to return to it.  He's liable to be put out on appeal (if anyone noticed), but it's otherwise baserunning as usual.

R1 is safe.   For R2, the defense would have to touch second, or throw to third and tag R2, AND make it clear they're appealing him leaving early.

By declaring R1 out for not being able to legally occupy second you'd be explicitly telling the defense that R2 left early.  Not cool.

[Velho]

53 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

For R2, the defense would have to touch second, or throw to third and tag R2, AND make it clear they're appealing him leaving early.

Since there's been a subsequent play did defense lose their right to appeal?

[beerguy55]

1 minute ago, Velho said:

Since there's been a subsequent play did defense lose their right to appeal?

No, not during playing action.  The defense isn't required to complete an appeal while ignoring other base runners advancing during the course of the ongoing play.   Otherwise, with R1/R3 on a fly ball I'd make sure R1 left early every time.   It either draws the throw from R3...or, if defense throws home then they wouldn't be able to appeal R1...that's not how the rule works.

[Jimurray]

2 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

No, not during playing action.  The defense isn't required to complete an appeal while ignoring other base runners advancing during the course of the ongoing play.   Otherwise, with R1/R3 on a fly ball I'd make sure R1 left early every time.   It either draws the throw from R3...or, if defense throws home then they wouldn't be able to appeal R1...that's not how the rule works.

For NCAA (I think, I haven't found an interp for them) and OBR it would be continuous action created by the batted ball that would allow an appeal after action relaxed. Even an appeal throw during that action that might go out of play does not preclude the same appeal once action relaxed. Of course HS allows dead ball appeals so they don't care what happens during continuous action.

[Mudisfun]

45 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

For NCAA (I think, I haven't found an interp for them) and OBR it would be continuous action created by the batted ball that would allow an appeal after action relaxed. Even an appeal throw during that action that might go out of play does not preclude the same appeal once action relaxed. Of course HS allows dead ball appeals so they don't care what happens during continuous action.

To add on to this, even if you were to invoke the 'pitch, play or attempted play' to deny a subsequent appeal (after relaxed action), in FED, if the offense causes the defense to make another play versus making their appeal, they do not lose their right for the appeal after said play or attempted play.

 

 

[Velho]

 

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

No, not during playing action. 

11 minutes ago, Mudisfun said:

even if you were to invoke the 'pitch, play or attempted play' to deny a subsequent appeal (after relaxed action)

Thanks both. So in the spirit of "use rules to solve problems and not create them" mantra, I think it makes to come at this from the other side, i.e. the explicit situations the defense loses the appeal. Two I can think of:

1) limited to a very explicit appeal attempt after "relaxed play" (and being liberal about when relaxed, i.e. everyone has stopped moving and heart rates are down) that gets botched - for example, coming out of relaxed/dead ball the pitcher steps off and airmails the throw to 3rd out of play.

2) The Tucker post season play being the other use case under OBR (but not in Fed as @Mudisfun points out). 

Am I making sense or have I talked myself into a rathole?

[SH0102]

When a runner passes a base, they have acquired that base. The action of not touching it or not retouching (tag up) only makes you liable to be put out upon appeal.

Basically you officiate any missed bases and left earlies as if they never happened. 
 

r2 left early but scores? Run counts unless they appeal.  R1 advanced? He didn’t do anything wrong and can advance all day long.

Everything about the OP is legal until it’s appealed otherwise.  Upon appeal; the runner who committed the transgression is out, the runner behind him did nothing wrong and was not put out legally (tagged out) and did nothing wrong to appeal

[Guest Jerrod]

So if on appeal r2 is out but r1 is still on 2nd base, does r1 get to stay on 2nd or do they have to go back to 1st base? 

[Velho]

47 minutes ago, Guest Jerrod said:

So if on appeal r2 is out but r1 is still on 2nd base, does r1 get to stay on 2nd or do they have to go back to 1st base? 

R2 is out on appeal. R1 gets to stay on 2nd base. 

[beerguy55]

On 3/3/2023 at 5:15 PM, Guest Jerrod said:

So if on appeal r2 is out but r1 is still on 2nd base, does r1 get to stay on 2nd or do they have to go back to 1st base? 

R1 would only have to return to first base if R2 returned to second, successfully reached second before being put out on appeal AND decided to stay on second base....at that point R1 has no safe haven and would have to return to first if he doesn't want to get tagged out.

With R1 standing on second, R2 could conceivable run back to second, touch second, and then return to third.  R1 is only in jeopardy for the period where both are touching second base.