Base running

[Guest John Fitz]

A runner misses first base and touches second. He runs back to first and gets tagged on his way. 2 runners cross home. Ump misses runner missing first but then calls him out after appeal. Do runs count?

[LMSANS]

1 minute ago, Guest John Fitz said:

A runner misses first base and touches second. He runs back to first and gets tagged on his way. 2 runners cross home. Ump misses runner missing first but then calls him out after appeal. Do runs count?

Do you have an appeal or a runner being tagged while off the base?

[Guest John Fitz]

Runner was called out during play while both teams called for the player and throw to go back to first. Appeal was for runs. 

[agdz59]

So, a runner is put out twice: once with a tag, non-forced out and then again on appeal for a force out. Purely a guess but I would allow the appeal to supercede the tag since I don't see a real difference between this and any other play that is appealed.  If the appeal is allowed, no runs score.

[SH0102]

Anytime the third out (or advantageous fourth out) is made on the batter without their having safely reached first, no runs shall score.  So if the out was declared for missing first base on appeal, no runs score.

If the umpire missed that as you said, and was just a normal put out, then runs count if they touched home before the tag for the put out.

Couple of side notes however....

--- In my time as an umpire, I have seen about 5,247 missed bases by runners, and about 4 have been appealed.  No idea why a batter who misses first and has made it all the way to second would then turn and go back because of it.  You are way more likely to be put out going back than you are of the defense appealing.

---  To pile on to that, even if the defense sees it and appeals it (rare), the umpire has to see it too.  So let's exaggerate and say there is a 5% chance the defensive team actually saw it and is going to appeal it, and if you have a decent umpire, there's an 90% chance he saw it...much less if he is working solo, the odds of both happening is only 4.5%...keep running!

--- Was this umpire working solo?  No umpire, EVER, should call a runner out for missing a base if they didn't see it happen.  I don't care if every player, coach, and fan of the defensive teams shouts in unison "he missed ____ base!", you can not call what you don't see.  If he was working solo, missed touches are part of life...especially on balls in the air, because he can not look at touch of first until the fair/foul/catch/no-catch has clearly been determined.

 

The only part of this post that bothers me is you saying the umpire missed his missed touch, then called him out on appeal (only thing to appeal is missed base), so I am not a fan of their changing the call for something they didn't see.

[agdz59]

7 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

 

--- In my time as an umpire, I have seen about 5,247 missed bases by runners, and about 4 have been appealed.  No idea why a batter who misses first and has made it all the way to second would then turn and go back because of it.  You are way more likely to be put out going back than you are of the defense appealing.

 

A side note to your side note.  Man, oh man this is so true.  If any of these youth travel team coaches asked me for advice I would tell them to do two things 1) assign an assistant coach to be watching for missed bags while they are on defense and 2) coach your infielders that if they are not involved in a play to the outfield - instead of standing their watching and get called for obstruction when the runner bowls them over, watch runners for missed bases and teach them how to properly appeal. 

They will win games because of those two things, I can guarantee it.

[noumpere]

40 minutes ago, Guest John Fitz said:

A runner misses first base and touches second. He runs back to first and gets tagged on his way. 2 runners cross home. Ump misses runner missing first but then calls him out after appeal. Do runs count?

Assuming two were out before the play (you didn't say) AND that it was a valid appeal, then the BR's out was the third out before he (legally) reached first base.  No runs score.

Here's the OBR rule -- the other codes are the same (even if the wording is different):

5.08 How a Team Scores
(a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to
and touches first, second, third and home base before three men
are put out to end the inning.
EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner ad -
vances to home base during a play in which the third out
is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first
base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding
runner who is declared out because he failed to
touch one of the bases.

[isired]

A runner misses first base and touches second. He runs back to first and gets tagged on his way. 2 runners cross home. Ump misses runner missing first but then calls him out after appeal. Do runs count?

How do you know that the umpire didn't see the BR miss first?

[Guest John Fitz]

Thanks guys!!!

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, Guest John Fitz said:

Thanks guys!!!

So, in summary...

IF he missed first base, and

IF the ump saw the miss, and

IF it was evident to the umpire that the defense was making an appeal on the missed base,

and if that was the third out, the runs would not count.

 

If the ump doesn't see the miss, for whatever reason - be it he was watching one of the other runners, or he actually saw the runner touch the base, or something else - then it's a plain old third out and the runs count if they happened prior.

 

 

[kylehutson]

2 hours ago, SH0102 said:

In my time as an umpire, I have seen about 5,247 missed bases by runners, and about 4 have been appealed.  No idea why a batter who misses first and has made it all the way to second would then turn and go back because of it.

Veering off-topic. But conversely I've had coaches appeal a 3rd base left early on a catch by an outfielder somewhere around 5,247 times, and actually seen one leave early about 4 times.

Seems to me they're appealing at the wrong time.

[SH0102]

32 minutes ago, kylehutson said:

Veering off-topic. But conversely I've had coaches appeal a 3rd base left early on a catch by an outfielder somewhere around 5,247 times, and actually seen one leave early about 4 times.

Seems to me they're appealing at the wrong time.

^^^^  This has my vote for most ironic, but most true, post of the year

[isired]

Thanks guys!!!

How do you know that the umpire didn't see the BR miss first?

Really curious about this - did he say that he didn't see it? And then he made the call? Or was he just not in any position to see it and made the call anyway?

[beerguy55]

41 minutes ago, isired said:

Really curious about this - did he say that he didn't see it? And then he made the call? Or was he just not in any position to see it and made the call anyway?

Or, OP believes the ump is supposed to call it when he sees it instead of waiting for an appeal??

 

Or, the ump simply called him out for being tagged...the defense believed they were appealing, but the ump is simply calling the dude out for being tagged.

4 hours ago, SH0102 said:

In my time as an umpire, I have seen about 5,247 missed bases by runners, and about 4 have been appealed.

Don't advertise that...you'll have coaches appealing missed bases every time a player advances more than one base.

[Velho]

2 hours ago, SH0102 said:

2 hours ago, kylehutson said:

Veering off-topic. But conversely I've had coaches appeal a 3rd base left early on a catch by an outfielder somewhere around 5,247 times, and actually seen one leave early about 4 times.

Seems to me they're appealing at the wrong time.

^^^^  This has my vote for most ironic, but most true, post of the year

Had this the other night in 10U. R3 missed home by a mile on a double (so no action). Catcher even saw it - gave me that sequence: look at me, look at home, look at me. I no sold it. They never appealed. Two plays later? Runner landed square on home plate in a late tag situation. Dugout "APPEAL APPEAL" (at least they didn't call time first  )

 

5 hours ago, SH0102 said:

the odds of both happening is only 4.5%...keep running!

100%. As a coach, I'd have my guys Run Run Run while the Defense was trying to get back to tag the missed / left early base.