Old masks...thoughts? (Plus All-Star DXP 2500 question)

[Scissors]

Just wondering what you guys think of older mask styles. I frequently use my old FM25 and am happy with it but understand why others might not be. Also wondering if anyone knows about the All-Star DXP 2500, the old carbon fiber one. Found one for sale at a good price but wondering if it's worth it. I read on this site that they would shatter sometimes on a hit because of heat changes or something. 

[SeeingEyeDog]

I have always loved the look of those old school, 3-bar masks but, when was the last time someone wore one of those? The 40's? There's a reason for that...

If you have questions about the stability of an All-Star mask like that DXP 2500, contact them directly here: https://www.all-starsports.com/contact/ 

I sent a message there and no less than Doc Jurga himself contacted me personally, the next day. You'd have to pay to ship it in but, I'm sure they'd get a kick out of inspecting it for you and then they would pay to ship it back. But, like my beloved 3-bar, I suspect there's ALSO a reason nobody is making masks out of carbon fiber anymore either...

~Dawg

[boyinr]

@MadMaxcan really chime in but I don't believe this to be carbon fiber.  I believe it is a resin of some formulation. There is a lot of history behind this frame.  

  

[Marcus6]

3 hours ago, boyinr said:

@MadMaxcan really chime in but I don't believe this to be carbon fiber.  I believe it is a resin of some formulation. There is a lot of history behind this frame.  

  

Correct these were the +POS resin masks which were marketed to be super light.  A guy in our area had one and it sure was super light.  They were prone to cracking after experiencing long durations of heat and sunlight.

Believe all star made these for +POS and +POS just slapped their name and logo on the ones they sold.  Definitely not carbon fiber these were sold in the mid/late 90s I believe.

You can search the forum for more about these masks.

[BT_Blue]

1 hour ago, FranklinT said:

Correct these were the +POS resin masks which were marketed to be super light.  A guy in our area had one and it sure was super light.  They were prone to cracking after experiencing long durations of heat and sunlight.

Believe all star made these for +POS and +POS just slapped their name and logo on the ones they sold.  Definitely not carbon fiber these were sold in the mid/late 90s I believe.

You can search the forum for more about these masks.

You are correct regarding All-Star.

As for the whole cracking thing. That was only the first run of these masks. There were about 3 or 4 runs after that, and they all were fine.

I had one with the first set of real gear I bought and liked it. But those bars are THICK!

[MadMax]

Indeed @boyinr is right, this infamous frame isn’t carbon fiber. If it was, it wouldn’t suffer the fate that befell it. 

It’s actually a thermoplastic resin, similar to Delrin ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyoxymethylene ) which was used in tent poles before aluminum became more reliable and cost effective. In order for it be classified as a fiberglass, we’d have to know the amount/ratio of glass fibers reinforcing it… and it’s this lack of structure that causes this mask to be so dubious. 

It was the joint development of the Jurga family (All-Star) and Dan Parsons (+POS). It was incredibly light and wouldn’t bend, such a massive improvement over the Rawlings PWMX, All-Star FM25 Steel, and Wilson A3027. The bars had to be that fat to resist flex and dampen the force of an impact. With proper care, in most environments, it did very well, and represents the bridge between the heavy double-wire catcher’s masks and the first single-wire umpire masks (which owe their adoption to the Wilson Dynalite and Nike Icon Titanium). 

However, it was plagued by a fatal flaw, a phenomenon tabbed Thermal Cyclic Fatigue. In warm climates, the mask would behave as expected. Even in typically cold(er) climates, the mask world behave as expected. It was the heat of a day’s use, followed by a relatively rapid cool off, bordering on or involving (near) freezing temperatures, that would cause micro-fractures to start. Heat it up, leave it in the car or bag overnight and nearly freeze it, then heat it up again… repeat the cycle a number of times, expand & contract… and all of the sudden, a 5 oz. missile hits at 95 mph, and the mask doesn’t bend, it shatters. 

Reportedly, the TP resin was reformulated in successive batches to eliminate that trait, but by then, and without digital asset tracking (at the time), there wasn’t a way to recall & replace those masks already in use and circulation. 

[dumbdumb]

18 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

I have always loved the look of those old school, 3-bar masks but, when was the last time someone wore one of those? The 40's? There's a reason for that...

If you have questions about the stability of an All-Star mask like that DXP 2500, contact them directly here: https://www.all-starsports.com/contact/ 

I sent a message there and no less than Doc Jurga himself contacted me personally, the next day. You'd have to pay to ship it in but, I'm sure they'd get a kick out of inspecting it for you and then they would pay to ship it back. But, like my beloved 3-bar, I suspect there's ALSO a reason nobody is making masks out of carbon fiber anymore either...

~Dawg

Dutch Rennert 8-28-1992 HP, 1B Rapuano, 2B Tata, 3B Ripley.

8-1 Houston over Montreal at the Astrodome. 2:55 pace of game.

[Scissors]

4 hours ago, MadMax said:

Indeed @boyinr is right, this infamous frame isn’t carbon fiber. If it was, it wouldn’t suffer the fate that befell it. 

It’s actually a thermoplastic resin, similar to Delrin ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyoxymethylene ) which was used in tent poles before aluminum became more reliable and cost effective. In order for it be classified as a fiberglass, we’d have to know the amount/ratio of glass fibers reinforcing it… and it’s this lack of structure that causes this mask to be so dubious. 

It was the joint development of the Jurga family (All-Star) and Dan Parsons (+POS). It was incredibly light and wouldn’t bend, such a massive improvement over the Rawlings PWMX, All-Star FM25 Steel, and Wilson A3027. The bars had to be that fat to resist flex and dampen the force of an impact. With proper care, in most environments, it did very well, and represents the bridge between the heavy double-wire catcher’s masks and the first single-wire umpire masks (which owe their adoption to the Wilson Dynalite and Nike Icon Titanium). 

However, it was plagued by a fatal flaw, a phenomenon tabbed Thermal Cyclic Fatigue. In warm climates, the mask would behave as expected. Even in typically cold(er) climates, the mask world behave as expected. It was the heat of a day’s use, followed by a relatively rapid cool off, bordering on or involving (near) freezing temperatures, that would cause micro-fractures to start. Heat it up, leave it in the car or bag overnight and nearly freeze it, then heat it up again… repeat the cycle a number of times, expand & contract… and all of the sudden, a 5 oz. missile hits at 95 mph, and the mask doesn’t bend, it shatters. 

Reportedly, the TP resin was reformulated in successive batches to eliminate that trait, but by then, and without digital asset tracking (at the time), there wasn’t a way to recall & replace those masks already in use and circulation. 

Thanks for the information, is there any way to tell an earlier from later batch? Really thinking about getting my hands on one but maybe it would be stupid to try it in a game. Would probably look good with the leather mag pads.

[kylejt]

I had the +POS version years ago. It's really flat shaped, and just absorbed baseballs. Knocked me senseless one time, which was its last for me. 

But they were lighter, by far, than anything else out there, were out of production, and I sold it for a lot of dough. 

Do understand the view out of them is not ideal. 

[BT_Blue]

On 6/16/2021 at 7:47 PM, kylejt said:

I had the +POS version years ago. It's really flat shaped, and just absorbed baseballs. Knocked me senseless one time, which was its last for me. 

But they were lighter, by far, than anything else out there, were out of production, and I sold it for a lot of dough. 

Do understand the view out of them is not ideal. 

Ditto on knocking me on my ass. The only real hit I remember taking with it put me on a knee! That was also back in the day when you finished the game and then worked a double the next two days after that (oh to be young and stupid again!).

Wish I had a chance to sell mine when I upgraded. Mine got given away by a family member who's house I was squatting at for a few years. Got kicked out, moved, and didn't make it back down there before they eventually donated all my gear.

Plus side of that... it forced me to upgrade to better stuff.

Still sucked though!