Infield Fly Rule LL rules

[ArchAngel72]

Rule 2.00

Rule 2.00 defines the Infield Fly as, “a fair fly ball (not including a line drive or a bunt) which can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort, when first and second, or first, second, and third bases are occupied before two are out. The pitcher, catcher, and any outfielder stationed in the infield on the play shall be considered infielders for the purpose of this rule.” It goes on to state that “[t]he ball is alive and runners may advance at the risk of being caught or retouch and advance after the ball is touched, the same as on any fly ball. If the hit becomes a foul ball, it is treated the same as any foul ball.”

Here are the key elements in understanding the Infield Fly Rule:

1) There must be less than 2 outs;

2) There must be runners on first and second OR first, second, and third;

3) The fly ball cannot be a bunt or a line drive;

4) An infielder must be able to catch the ball with ordinary effort.

The purpose of the rule is to protect the runners on base. This rule IS NOT supposed to be a free gift to the defense. The batter is ruled out so the runners are no longer forced to advance if the ball falls untouched. Without this rule, the defense could allow the ball to fall untouched to the ground and turn an easy double-play because the runners have to tag up for the fly ball.

The reason there has to be runners on first and second or first, second, and third, is because there must be at least two runners on base subject to a “force play.” Otherwise, the defense can gain no advantage by allowing the ball to drop. Also, there must be less than two outs, or it would be just as easy to catch the fly ball as let it drop and get the force out.

To determine whether a fly ball should be called an Infield Fly, remember the purpose of the rule. If, in an “Infield Fly situation” a fielder can allow a fly ball to drop untouched and possibly turn an easy double-play, then the batter should be called out. If the fly ball is in an area that would not allow for an easy double-play, then odds are good that the Infield Fly should not be called. However, in those grey areas where there is doubt one way or the other, a good umpire will protect the runners and call the batter out.

 

So here is my question.  Bases loaded, no outs, batter pops it up middle of the infield, At or near its peak The PU calls IFF, batter is out. R1 and R2 took off running before the IFF rule was called. Confusion over who’s catching it when there were 2 infielders under it causes it to drop to the ground. Upon that R3 bolts for home where he is tagged out sliding in.  F2 seeing that R1 is not at 1st base charges over to 1st. PU calls R1 out.

 

The argument that I am having with the other Umpire ( He’s calling me for a ruling help on this) 

He states that R1 is out cause he left early.  I say NO he’s not out on that appeal at 1st as if he made it to 2nd that’s where he should be safely now as the ball was NOT caught even if its IFF they can run at their own peril and ONLY if the ball is caught do they need to tag up.

In the end R1 thinking he was out before the PU called him out assumed he was out and ran into the dugout So he’s out for abandonment.

 

Anyway I feel I am right and LOL He just called me back.  He knows I am right..

 

Well lesson learned long post and cut and paste on the iPad not the easiest thing to do but sigh.. I Was vindicated and was correct.  Well unless you guys tell me I am not but I am pretty sure my definition is correct. As to when they can run and how they are handled if the ball is uncaught.

 

 

 

[SH0102]

Im impressed the LL catcher knew he had to tag R3, kudos to him. Many LL kids would think it’s a force and just touch the plate.

As for R1, he is not out unless tagged out while not in contact with a base because he advanced at his own risk.

Since the ball was dropped, there is no requirement to tag up

[noumpere]

An infield fly is just like any other fly, except the batter is out whether or not  the ball is caught.  So, ask your partner whether R1 would be out on appeal on any other fly that was not caught.

[MT73]

On 5/9/2021 at 8:24 AM, noumpere said:

An infield fly is just like any other fly, except the batter is out whether or not  the ball is caught.  So, ask your partner whether R1 would be out on appeal on any other fly that was not caught.

Exactly.

‘The only thing umpires must remember  is that the force is off and any advancing runner must be tagged.

[ArchAngel72]

29 minutes ago, MT73 said:

Exactly.

‘The only thing umpires must remember  is that the force is off and any advancing runner must be tagged.

Umm no

Force is off yes  only tagging is not correct.  If they leave to early an appeal to the bag that left early can also put them out. Just like any other fly ball that is caught. ( not following the scenario I gave, BUT if the ball was actually caught)

 

[noumpere]

16 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Umm no

Force is off yes  only tagging is not correct.  If they leave to early an appeal to the bag that left early can also put them out. Just like any other fly ball that is caught.

 

An appeal is NOT an "out on an advancing runner" as MT73 said.

[ArchAngel72]

7 minutes ago, noumpere said:

An appeal is NOT an "out on an advancing runner" as MT73 said.

The appeal would be the toss to the base they left early.  Is THAT not an appeal?

 

[noumpere]

29 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

The appeal would be the toss to the base they left early.  Is THAT not an appeal?

 

Yes, it's an appeal.  I's still not an out on an ADVANCING runner.

[ArchAngel72]

31 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Yes, it's an appeal.  I's still not an out on an ADVANCING runner.

Define advancing runner because I think the terminology there has you and I at odds.

 

To me an advancing runner is one that moves from the previous base to the next base. Whether it be legally within the rules does not matter. As they advance at there own peril, unless directed by an umpire due to something like a balk and or a ball tossed OB

So to me if a fly ball is caught and the runner advanced to the next base they are put out by appeal to the bag they left early and or tagging them at the next base they have acquired, which they are not safe at as they left the prior base too early.

 

[Recontra]

"In the end R1 thinking he was out before the PU called him out assumed he was out and ran into the dugout So he’s out for abandonment."

R-1 is not out for abandonment. He did not abandon anything. He was wrongly called out by the umpire and left the field of play after being called out (that's what runners are supposed to do after being called out). If the error in calling him out is caught after an umpire conference or after the HC complains, he should be returned to the base he occupied at the the time he was wrongly called out. But he's not out a second time for complying with the initial ruling on the field.

[ArchAngel72]

5 minutes ago, Recontra said:

"In the end R1 thinking he was out before the PU called him out assumed he was out and ran into the dugout So he’s out for abandonment."

R-1 is not out for abandonment. He did not abandon anything. He was wrongly called out by the umpire and left the field of play after being called out (that's what runners are supposed to do after being called out). If the error in calling him out is caught after an umpire conference or after the HC complains, he should be returned to the base he occupied at the the time he was wrongly called out. But he's not out a second time for complying with the initial ruling on the field.

He left the field on his own. The PU was alone and he was not called out until he was actually in the dug out.

YES he was called out wrongly because the PU called him out on appeal thinking he did not tag up when he should have, HOWEVER  he is technically still out for abandonment when he crosses the line into the dugout for abandonment because he was not called out ever until F2 went to 1b and touched it.

 

Its truly an odd thing that happened but anyway the PU mis understood how an uncaught IFF worked with the runners and that was straightened out. 

 

[beerguy55]

1 minute ago, ArchAngel72 said:

ts truly an odd thing that happened but anyway the PU mis understood how an uncaught IFF worked

More common than you think - I've run into a lot of people who believe, or at one time in the past believed, that on an IFF runners are required to tag up until the ball is either caught or hits the ground.

 

4 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

He left the field on his own. The PU was alone and he was not called out until he was actually in the dug out.

YES he was called out wrongly because the PU called him out on appeal thinking he did not tag up when he should have, HOWEVER  he is technically still out for abandonment when he crosses the line into the dugout for abandonment because he was not called out ever until F2 went to 1b and touched it.

This is borderline, especially in LL.  Yes, the runner should have stayed on first, or second, and waited until  the ump called SOMETHING.  But at the same time, as I'm imagining this play out...R1 is standing on second base...F2 steps on first for a believed third out appeal (and triple play)...everyone erupts cheering, defense walking off the field, or dancing around excitedly...maybe even offensive coaches walking off wondering wtf happened...and the PU is calling...NOTHING!!!   And doesn't call anything until the player reaches the bench?!?!?...and then at that time calls the runner out for the appeal?  Not for abandonment?   Something doesn't add up.

I think at this age I'd cut the kid some slack and put him back where he was.   Though the ump didn't technically rule him out immediately, his lack of communication contributed to R1's belief he was out.  Frankly, I suspect the ump did rule him out immediately.

[ArchAngel72]

7 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

I think at this age I'd cut the kid some slack and put him back where he was.   Though the ump didn't technically rule him out immediately, his lack of communication contributed to R1's belief he was out.  Frankly, I suspect the ump did rule him out immediately.

Well he (the PU) told me he called out after the kid had left the field and was in the dugout.  /shrug I tend to agree with you that he probably relayed that incorrectly to me.  Like you I feel that portion does not add up. But anywho. its done and over with

@Thunderheads please lock this horse its beat enough I think

 

[noumpere]

58 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Define advancing runner because I think the terminology there has you and I at odds.

I have always used it as "an out on a runner who is attempting to advance to the next base and is out because he is tagged while off a base or forced out."

An appeal is an out for a previous baserunning error.

[aaluck]

10 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

This is borderline, especially in LL.  Yes, the runner should have stayed on first, or second, and waited until  the ump called SOMETHING.  But at the same time, as I'm imagining this play out...R1 is standing on second base...F2 steps on first for a believed third out appeal (and triple play)...everyone erupts cheering, defense walking off the field, or dancing around excitedly...maybe even offensive coaches walking off wondering wtf happened...and the PU is calling...NOTHING!!!   And doesn't call anything until the player reaches the bench?!?!?...and then at that time calls the runner out for the appeal?  Not for abandonment?   Something doesn't add up.

I'm with you on this. I'm very confused as to what happened FIRST.  Did the kid run into the dugout BEFORE he was called out by the PU or AFTER.

[ArchAngel72]

 

4 minutes ago, aaluck said:

I'm with you on this. I'm very confused as to what happened FIRST.  Did the kid run into the dugout BEFORE he was called out by the PU or AFTER.

 

On 5/8/2021 at 9:17 PM, ArchAngel72 said:

In the end R1 thinking he was out before the PU called him out assumed he was out and ran into the dugout

[ArchAngel72]

5 minutes ago, noumpere said:

I have always used it as "an out on a runner who is attempting to advance to the next base and is out because he is tagged while off a base or forced out."

An appeal is an out for a previous baserunning error.

Would not tagging up on a fly ball that is caught be a base running error?