R3 steals home and is hit by pitch PRIOR to touching the plate

[SeeingEyeDog]

2 man crew, 14U travel fall rec game and we were under Federation rules with an otherwise legal slide into the plate.

I believe we had a 3-2 count with 2 outs and only R3 and I'd also like to know how this should be adjudicated in other scenarios...

My partner (U1) in B position came up huge immediately calling interference on the runner of the catcher and the runner is out. I mirrored him a beat later on the plate with a hammer and no verbalization. The manager (coaching 3B) said nothing, walked to his dugout, we changed over and the game proceeded and ended without further incident.

I went home and researched this absolutely certain we nailed this. Now...I'm not so sure because I can't locate a citation that fully supports that call in that situation. Given no apparent citation, I'm wondering if we should have merely called the pitch a ball or strike? Who is the runner really "interfering" with? The batter...his teammate. If it was ball four, it's a walk and the run scores...or is R3 returned to 3B? If it was a strike, it's strike 3 and the inning is over? Or is this no different than any other tag play at a base where the throw strikes the runner and deflects harmlessly away in a common "baseball play/action" and as umpires we "have nothing" there? And again as I stated above, if runners and or count dictate a different decision(s), please chime in with that, too. Please include citations, if applicable...

~Dog

[Replacematt]

I don't do FED, so I won't comment on the proper adjudication.

However, your partner had no business making this call. This is PU's. 

[Jimurray]

1 minute ago, Matt said:

I don't do FED, so I won't comment on the proper adjudication.

However, your partner had no business making this call. This is PU's. 

FED would be the same as all codes I think. Pitch strikes runner. Ball dead. All runners advance 1 base unless the pitch was strike three with 2 outs. 5-1-1-a, 8-3-1-a. But interesting wrinkle if ball 4. I never think about that. 

[noumpere]

From J/R:

If a runner is attempting to steal home and there is a pitch that touches him at the
plate, the pitch is ruled either a ball or strike and it is dead. Every runner
(including the struck runner) is awarded his advance base. However, if the pitch
was a third strike the batter is out, and if such out is the third out, there is no run

[Thunderheads]

@Senor Azul in 3,...............................2,.......................1,..................

 

[maven]

44 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

But interesting wrinkle if ball 4. I never think about that. 

What's the wrinkle? Dead ball, ball 4, score R3. Play on.

[Jimurray]

1 minute ago, maven said:

What's the wrinkle? Dead ball, ball 4, score R3. Play on.

Just one I never envisioned. Is it "time, you score, that's ball 4, you 1B". Our OPs missed a chance to really nail one although maybe @SeeingEyeDog would have remembered some vague ruling and got it except his effing partner stepped all over it. 

[maven]

2 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Is it "time, you score, that's ball 4, you 1B"

Should call the pitch first, right? Then place runners starting with the one closest to home back to BR.

"Time! That's ball 4! You, score; you, 1B."

 

[wolfe_man]

Edited: I went back and re-read the rule until I think I understand it better now.  I was fully on board with the dead ball part of it, but I was struggling with calling him out on a pitch low enough to hit a sliding runner on the leg/shin 4 inches off the plate.

[Senor Azul]

2019 NFHS rule 8 SECTION 3 BASERUNNING AWARDS

ART. 1 . . . Each runner other than the batter-runner (who is governed by 8-1-2) is awarded one base when:

a.    there is a balk (5-1-1a, 6-2-4) or a pitch strikes a runner (6-1-4);

2019 rule 5 SECTION 1 DEAD BALL

ART. 1 . . . Ball becomes dead immediately when:

a.    a pitch touches a batter or his clothing (8-1-1d), a runner (8-3-1a);

2019 NFHS Case Book Play 8.3.1 Situation A: 

Bases loaded and (a) two outs or (b) one out, R3 attempts to steal home. With a 1-2 count, the pitch hits R3 while the ball is in the strike zone. RULING:  In both (a) and (b), the ball becomes dead immediately and the batter is out because of the third strike. In (a), no run is scored since batter became third out. In (b) all base runners are awarded one base from where they were at time of pitch and R3 scores. (5-1-1a, 6-1-4, 8-1-1 Note 1, 9-1-1a)

From the 2016 BRD (section 457, p. 303):

Play 279-457:  R2, R3, 1 out. R3 steals. The ball, not in the strike zone, hits him. R2 is not moving. Ruling:  At all levels, the run scores and B1 walks. In FED/OBR, R2 is awarded third. In NCAA, R2 stays at second.

[SeeingEyeDog]

@wolfe_man, I don't want to confuse the issue any further because @Senor Azulhas provided the applicable citations, however...again, the runner did NOT beat the ball to the plate. He was struck by the pitch sliding in BEFORE he touched the plate. It was a well inside pitch on the RH batter and it was a low pitch that went from the pitcher's hand direct to R3's leading shin. (Grandma had this pitch a ball as it missed down AND in...) His foot was 4 inches from the plate when he was struck. The catcher had no influence or involvement in this play. He was back on his heels and caught flat-footed only moving once the ball bounded away to the backstop.

As always, I appreciate all the support and feedback on this, brothers. You've given me a lot to think about and I hope to see this scenario again soon...

~Dog

[wolfe_man]

12 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

@wolfe_man, I don't want to confuse the issue any further...

 

~Dog

It didn't make sense to me as I read it, but I'll not push it either.  Thanks amigo!

[Jimurray]

48 minutes ago, wolfe_man said:

It didn't make sense to me as I read it, but I'll not push it either.  Thanks amigo!

What doesn't make sense is you considering any RI when a pitch hits a runner stealing home.

[Recontra]

I've always had one unanswered question on this play as I've contemplated it over the years (never actually seen it happen). From the citations above, it appears PU is to call the pitch a ball or a strike. That's fine if (as in the NFHS case) the ball is actually over the plate and in the strike zone when it hits the runner. What if it's not? What if the pitch hits the runner before it reaches the batter (as it did in the OP)?  Are we going to call the pitch based on where we think the now dead ball "probably" would have ended up if it didn't hit the runner? If it never reaches the batter, why isn't that just a dead ball and a "no pitch"?

I'm fine with accepting the BRD as gospel on the subject, because there are lots of things in baseball that are not perfect (and out of honor for Carl Childress), but it just goes against my grain to call a pitch a strike that never reached the strike zone/batter--or to call it a ball because I think it probably wouldn't have crossed through the strike zone once it got to the batter (after it was already dead the instant it hit the runner). That just grinds at me for several different reasons:  a posthumous strike or ball.

"Play 279-457:  R2, R3, 1 out. R3 steals. The ball, not in the strike zone, hits him. R2 is not moving. Ruling:  At all levels, the run scores and B1 walks. In FED/OBR, R2 is awarded third. In NCAA, R2 stays at second."

[Jimurray]

8 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

@wolfe_man, I don't want to confuse the issue any further because @Senor Azulhas provided the applicable citations, however...again, the runner did NOT beat the ball to the plate. He was struck by the pitch sliding in BEFORE he touched the plate. It was a well inside pitch on the RH batter and it was a low pitch that went from the pitcher's hand direct to R3's leading shin. (Grandma had this pitch a ball as it missed down AND in...) His foot was 4 inches from the plate when he was struck. The catcher had no influence or involvement in this play. He was back on his heels and caught flat-footed only moving once the ball bounded away to the backstop.

As always, I appreciate all the support and feedback on this, brothers. You've given me a lot to think about and I hope to see this scenario again soon...

~Dog

Not sure if you would call it the right way next time when you rationalize “that the runner did not beat the ball to the plate”. What does that have to do with anything?

[Replacematt]

7 hours ago, Recontra said:

I've always had one unanswered question on this play as I've contemplated it over the years (never actually seen it happen). From the citations above, it appears PU is to call the pitch a ball or a strike. That's fine if (as in the NFHS case) the ball is actually over the plate and in the strike zone when it hits the runner. What if it's not? What if the pitch hits the runner before it reaches the batter (as it did in the OP)?  Are we going to call the pitch based on where we think the now dead ball "probably" would have ended up if it didn't hit the runner? If it never reaches the batter, why isn't that just a dead ball and a "no pitch"?

I'm fine with accepting the BRD as gospel on the subject, because there are lots of things in baseball that are not perfect (and out of honor for Carl Childress), but it just goes against my grain to call a pitch a strike that never reached the strike zone/batter--or to call it a ball because I think it probably wouldn't have crossed through the strike zone once it got to the batter (after it was already dead the instant it hit the runner). That just grinds at me for several different reasons:  a posthumous strike or ball.

"Play 279-457:  R2, R3, 1 out. R3 steals. The ball, not in the strike zone, hits him. R2 is not moving. Ruling:  At all levels, the run scores and B1 walks. In FED/OBR, R2 is awarded third. In NCAA, R2 stays at second."

I'm thinking this might be akin to a batter permitting a pitch to hit him before it reaches the plate. 

[SeeingEyeDog]

Probably not @Jimurray...you stay classy, though.

~Dog

[Jimurray]

10 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Probably not @Jimurray...you stay classy, though.

~Dog

What would be classy is you educating your partner that he poached your call and kicked the rule. Also if you see those coaches again educating them on the rule that you kicked. My concern is that I don't know if you are holding on to the fact that the runner did not beat the ball to the plate and that the rules cited didn't apply in your OP which would not be correct. 

[Rich Ives]

21 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

@wolfe_man, I don't want to confuse the issue any further because @Senor Azulhas provided the applicable citations, however...again, the runner did NOT beat the ball to the plate. He was struck by the pitch sliding in BEFORE he touched the plate. It was a well inside pitch on the RH batter and it was a low pitch that went from the pitcher's hand direct to R3's leading shin. (Grandma had this pitch a ball as it missed down AND in...) His foot was 4 inches from the plate when he was struck. The catcher had no influence or involvement in this play. He was back on his heels and caught flat-footed only moving once the ball bounded away to the backstop.

As always, I appreciate all the support and feedback on this, brothers. You've given me a lot to think about and I hope to see this scenario again soon...

~Dog

It was a pitch. It hit the runner.

[Jimurray]

On 10/22/2020 at 12:25 PM, wolfe_man said:

Edited: I went back and re-read the rule until I think I understand it better now.  I was fully on board with the dead ball part of it, but I was struggling with calling him out on a pitch low enough to hit a sliding runner on the leg/shin 4 inches off the plate.

Your edit still leaves me confused as to whether you would consider RI on an a pitch that hit the runner that had the potential to be or was a strike?

[wolfe_man]

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

Your edit still leaves me confused as to whether you would consider RI on an a pitch that hit the runner that had the potential to be or was a strike?

I always try to use WWJD in these cases.  What Would Jim Do. 

If a thrown pitch hits the runner, then I’d call time. Declare the pitch a ball or strike - and then determine the runners fate according to my call of the pitch.  Strike, R3 is out and inning is over - if a ball, R3 scores and batter walks.

If I judge it to be intentional interference of a thrown pitch, then R3 is out regardless of my pitch decision.

What did I miss?

[Jimurray]

57 minutes ago, wolfe_man said:

I always try to use WWJD in these cases.  What Would Jim Do. 

If a thrown pitch hits the runner, then I’d call time. Declare the pitch a ball or strike - and then determine the runners fate according to my call of the pitch.  Strike, R3 is out and inning is over - if a ball, R3 scores and batter walks.

If I judge it to be intentional interference of a thrown pitch, then R3 is out regardless of my pitch decision.

What did I miss?

Aside from the improbable possibility of intent, you missed that any pitch hitting a runner stealing home is a dead ball and he gets awarded home no matter what the umpire calls the pitch unless it was a 2 out strike 3 pitch that hit the runner. You did say you read the cites? Jim would apply the rules in OBR which are not limited to a strike but one rule does address only the strike sit:

5.09(a)
(14) With two out, a runner on third base, and two strikes on the batter, the runner attempts to steal home base on a legal pitch and the ball touches the runner in the batter’s strike zone. The umpire shall call “Strike Three,” the bat- ter is out and the run shall not count; before two are out, the umpire shall call “Strike Three,” the ball is dead, and the run counts;

[noumpere]

9 hours ago, wolfe_man said:

I always try to use WWJD in these cases.  What Would Jim Do. 

If a thrown pitch hits the runner, then I’d call time. Declare the pitch a ball or strike - and then determine the runners fate according to my call of the pitch.  Strike, R3 is out and inning is over - if a ball, R3 scores and batter walks.

If I judge it to be intentional interference of a thrown pitch, then R3 is out regardless of my pitch decision.

What did I miss?

Is that a typo?  Because, R3 is never out in this situation -- it's NOT RI.

 

If the pitch is a strike, and it's strike 3, then the batter is out.  If the batter is the third out, then no run can score -- just like any other play in which the batter makes the third out before reaching first.

[wolfe_man]

27 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Is that a typo?  Because, R3 is never out in this situation -- it's NOT RI.

 

If the pitch is a strike, and it's strike 3, then the batter is out.  If the batter is the third out, then no run can score -- just like any other play in which the batter makes the third out before reaching first.

True. My error.

[wolfe_man]

9 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Aside from the improbable possibility of intent, you missed that any pitch hitting a runner stealing home is a dead ball and he gets awarded home no matter what the umpire calls the pitch unless it was a 2 out strike 3 pitch that hit the runner. You did say you read the cites? Jim would apply the rules in OBR which are not limited to a strike but one rule does address only the strike sit:

5.09(a)
(14) With two out, a runner on third base, and two strikes on the batter, the runner attempts to steal home base on a legal pitch and the ball touches the runner in the batter’s strike zone. The umpire shall call “Strike Three,” the bat- ter is out and the run shall not count; before two are out, the umpire shall call “Strike Three,” the ball is dead, and the run counts;

That’s why Jim is a better umpire than Keith. We all agree on it.

I don’t know why but this is confusing the life out of me. I’ll try to go read again.

 Thanks for clarifying it for  me though. I honestly appreciate the feedback and am learning... if slower than I desired.